Why I left Calvinism after 10 years...

[Amy.G]

Originally Posted by Robert Snow
OR likes to ask why one person will turn to Christ and another one won't. Let me ask, why did God choose some and reject others?

It appears to me that one answer is that it is according to the good pleasure of his will.

It has been shown that God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. So to say that He passes over some for salvation because it brings Him pleasure is against what scripture plainly says.

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: [and] not that he should return from his ways, and live?


According to Strong's, the definition for "wicked" in Ez 18:23 is:

H7563
רשׁע
râshâ‛
raw-shaw'
From H7561; morally wrong; concretely an (actively) bad person: - + condemned, guilty, ungodly, wicked (man), that did wrong.


The verse plainly says that God does not "pass" over someone because of the "pleasure of His good will". He wants people to turn from their wicked ways and live.

 

[Skandelon]

If people are dead in their trespasses and sins -- what kind of free-will can that be?!

And according to Paul, Believers are "dead to sin," yet do you think we as Christians have the ability to sin or resist when tempted? Being "dead" does not necessarily mean, as Calvinists insist, that men are completely incapable of response. That is completely unfounded. It simply means they are separated from God and must be reconciled.

 

[Amy.G]

If people are dead in their trespasses and sins -- what kind of free-will can that be?!

"Dead in sin" doesn't mean incapable of answering God's call. It means separated from God. Adam sinned and was separated from God. He hid himself. But when God called, Adam answered Him, even though he was "dead in sin". He died spiritually, but he could still answer God.

We are still capable of answering the call of God through the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Skandelon]

"Dead in sin" doesn't mean incapable of answering God's call. It means separated from God. Adam sinned and was separated from God. He hid himself. But when God called, Adam answered Him, even though he was "dead in sin". He died spiritually, but he could still answer God.

We are still capable of answering the call of God through the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

well put! :thumbs:

 

[Rippon]

We are still capable of answering the call of God through the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

And the only ones drawn are the ones given by the Father to his Son. Yes, they, and they alone, are the called.

 

[pinoybaptist]

AmyG.

The main problem is that many try to apply Ezekiel 18 to mankind, or to just about any man, when the Scriptures plainly state that "whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning", that is to say, the learning of the children of God.

The wicked in Israel, as you can see from the context, are those who do not do according to the statutes laid down by God for His people, and does not include anyone outside of Israel.

He is dealing with Israel, national Israel, which is a picture of the true Israel, composed of both Jew and Gentile, and what He said about the wicked here pertains to His chastisement of wrongdoing even among His own people.

Like a human father has no pleasure in chastising his earthly children, so our heavenly Father has no pleasure at all in allowing sin to carry its natural course in the life of His child.

I have more to add, but I am at work and just on break.

 

[Skandelon]

And the only ones drawn are the ones given by the Father to his Son. Yes, they, and they alone, are the called.

While Christ was on earth, yes, there were only a remnant of Israel that were chosen to be given to Christ (the disciples). However, once Christ was raised up he draws all men to himself (john 12:32). He did this by sending out his disciples (the remnant of Israel) to the whole world to preach the gospel, which is the POWER OF GOD unto Salvation.

 

[Jim1999]

It has been shown that God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. So to say that He passes over some for salvation because it brings Him pleasure is against what scripture plainly says.
========================

Sin is condemned by God because He is holy and cannot stand where sin prevails.

Man is not condemned by God, he created his own estate. God is simply being God, holy, just, true, pure and an other attributes one may attach.

It is not a wonder, knowing humankind, that one is saved, but a wonder that any are saved.

If God created man, man created the veil between himself and God. It is he veil of sin and sin has its penalty. Simple as that.

Still each Christianmust wrestle with the absolute sovereignty of God as did John Calvin. Calvinism is not based on the 5 points called tulip, but on the absolute sovereignty of God. To deny calvinism, this is what you deny and don't ever pray for God to overcome the evils of your life, the difficult things in life, because He as no power to do those things. He is subject to you and your puny desires; your selfish ways and wants. Simple as that.

My God shall reign wherever the sun.......

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Winman]

I am amazed at Calvinists. They have the ability to explain away half the Bible.

All doesn't mean all, when God says he doesn't take pleasure in the death of the wicked he really does.....

What a joke.

 

[OldRegular]

I will try to explain.

Matt 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

When a person is born again or regenerated, do they become righteous? In my view, yes. So they have no need any longer to be filled, they are already filled. I am not righteous because when I accepted Christ I suddenly stopped sinning. No way. I have sinned plenty since I was 11 years old. No, righteousness was imputed to me the moment I believed. I didn't become partially righteous, I became 100% righteous, Jesus's righteousness was imputed to me or put on my account. I no longer hunger or thirst for righteousness, I have already obtained it.

I don't believe that anyone has said that regeneration is synonymous with justification or the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus Christ. When one is regenerated he is given the gift of faith through which he is able to respond to the Gospel Call. Through the exercise of that faith he is justified or declared righteous.

I believe that what Jesus Christ is talking about in the passage from Matthew is that those who are redeemed want to become like Jesus Christ. That is they hunger and thirst after righteousness.

Some might call this "progressive" sanctification. ‘Progressive’ sanctification occurs as the believer grows in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ [2 Peter 3:18]. In His high priestly prayer [John 17] Jesus Christ prayed for His elect as follows:

John 17:15-17, KJV)
15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

"Progressive sanctification" can only occur when the believer is obedient. Just as the life of Abraham shows that obedience flows from faith so the New Testament teaches that obedience is a corollary or outgrowth of faith as shown in the following Scripture.

Ephesians 2:10, KJV
10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[OldRegular]

It has been shown that God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. So to say that He passes over some for salvation because it brings Him pleasure is against what scripture plainly says.

I did not say that God's choice of some to salvation was according to the good pleasure of his will. HE did! So you will have to take it up with HIM!

Ephesians 1:3-7, KJV
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he {God} hath chosen us in him{Jesus Christ} before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

It appears to me that one answer is that it is according to the good pleasure of his will.

 

[Winman]

So, you believe righteousness is progressive.

Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Does your righteousness exceed the Pharisees? For all we love to put them down, they were actually very good people for the most part.

Phil 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul was a Pharisee. He said touching the law he was blameless. Can you say that?

 

[OldRegular]

It has been shown that God does not take pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. So to say that He passes over some for salvation because it brings Him pleasure is against what scripture plainly says.
========================

Sin is condemned by God because He is holy and cannot stand where sin prevails.

Man is not condemned by God, he created his own estate. God is simply being God, holy, just, true, pure and an other attributes one may attach.

It is not a wonder, knowing humankind, that one is saved, but a wonder that any are saved.

If God created man, man created the veil between himself and God. It is he veil of sin and sin has its penalty. Simple as that.

Still each Christianmust wrestle with the absolute sovereignty of God as did John Calvin. Calvinism is not based on the 5 points called tulip, but on the absolute sovereignty of God. To deny calvinism, this is what you deny and don't ever pray for God to overcome the evils of your life, the difficult things in life, because He as no power to do those things. He is subject to you and your puny desires; your selfish ways and wants. Simple as that.

My God shall reign wherever the sun.......

Cheers,

Jim

Well put Jim and a Cherrie Christmas to you.

 

[Amy.G]

Ephesians 1:3-7, KJV
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he {God} hath chosen us in him{Jesus Christ} before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

It appears to me that one answer is that it is according to the good pleasure of his will.

It is the choosing of people through Jesus Christ that is His good pleasure. As I have said repeatedly, election is based on faith in Christ. Otherwise God has chosen people apart from Christ.

It is not His good pleasure to pass by certain people thereby sending them to hell.

 

[OldRegular]

So, you believe righteousness is progressive.

Winman can't you read anything correctly? I did not say that righteousness was progressive. I said that those who were redeemed would "hunger and thirst" to be more like Jesus Christ, that they would "hunger and thirst" after righteousness. I said that some might call that "progressive sanctification". Now you can translate that any way that makes you happy.:wavey::wavey:

Matt 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Does your righteousness exceed the Pharisees? For all we love to put them down, they were actually very good people for the most part.

The righteousness of anyone who is redeemed is greater than that of the Pharisees. They had no righteousness!

Phil 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Paul was a Pharisee. He said touching the law he was blameless. Can you say that?

Paul did not say "touching the law he was blameless". He said "touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless". Elsewhere he says: I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. [Galatians 2:21]

So you see Winman that righteous does not come by keeping the law. That is the reason the Pharisees were not righteous!

 

[OldRegular]

It is the choosing of people through Jesus Christ that is His good pleasure. As I have said repeatedly, election is based on faith in Christ. Otherwise God has chosen people apart from Christ.

No Amy.G it is choosing us in him{Jesus Christ}, not through Him. Also it is choosing according to the good pleasure of his will.

You may say that "election is based on faith in Christ" forever but that does not make it so. Election is based on the Sovereign Grace of God, nothing else.

Furthermore, the Scripture I quoted says nothing about those who are passed over.

It is not His good pleasure to pass by certain people thereby sending them to hell.

 

[Jim1999]

quote: It is not His good pleasure to pass by certain people thereby sending them to hell
----------------------------------------------

They send themselves to hell....Certainly God passes by sinful man at His own good pleasure. We don't know why chose some. It is amazing He chose any.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jim1999]

Thank you old regular and a very happy Christmas to you, and a blessed New Year in Him.


Cheers,

Jim

 

[OldRegular]

Winman

Before you get too excited about the righteousness of the Pharisees you should consider the following.

Luke 18:9-14
9. And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10. Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Scripture tells us that we are justified or declared righteous by faith. I believe there is a message in there for you!

 

[Skandelon]

Sin is condemned by God because He is holy and cannot stand where sin prevails.

Man is not condemned by God, he created his own estate. God is simply being God, holy, just, true, pure and an other attributes one may attach.

It is not a wonder, knowing humankind, that one is saved, but a wonder that any are saved.

If God created man, man created the veil between himself and God. It is he veil of sin and sin has its penalty. Simple as that.

Agreed. And if man turns to God the veil will be removed, right?

Still each Christianmust wrestle with the absolute sovereignty of God as did John Calvin. Calvinism is not based on the 5 points called tulip, but on the absolute sovereignty of God. To deny calvinism, this is what you deny and don't ever pray for God to overcome the evils of your life, the difficult things in life, because He as no power to do those things. He is subject to you and your puny desires; your selfish ways and wants. Simple as that.

To equate the denial of Calvinism with the denial of God's sovereignty is naive at best. If God chose to give man the ability to make a free moral choice in salvation, then that is God's sovereign prerogative. Or, do you believe that Free Agency is the one thing our all powerful, sovereign God could not accomplish in his creation?

I used to believe the Calvinist explanation of God made him more "sovereign," but I see it as just the opposite now. For you to keep God in control over our "puny desires" you have make Him out to be the one who makes all the choices. You have to reduce us to the level of animals who only choose instinctively determined by our inborn desires and outward stimuli alone. It is sad and clearly unbiblical.

Blessings