Did Adam reach age of responsibility before

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

May the reader duly note the manner in which DHK refuses to answer simple questions concerning his own stated views on this debate forum. Instead, he turns to personal unwarranted attacks and name calling. That speaks volumes as to his absolute inability to understand the ramification and logical ends of his own held beliefs.

Oh well, nothing new there.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

May the reader duly note the manner in which DHK refuses to answer simple questions concerning his own stated views on this debate forum. Instead, he turns to personal unwarranted attacks and name calling. That speaks volumes as to his absolute inability to understand the ramification and logical ends of his own held beliefs.

Oh well, nothing new there.

Having read over this thread I find that DHK answered you pretty well. Pointed out scripture verses for his postion. I think he may be quick tempered in these type discussions but I honestly don't know what you mean he didn't answer your simple question.

 

[DHK]

Not necessarily. Belief in the goodness of man sans the depravity of man would constitute huminism. Belief in the goodness of man weighed with the depravity of man isn't.

I wouldn't say it is "humanism" hook, line, and sinker.
But the basic premise of humanism is the goodness of man. Man is essentially good and not evil. If I am not wrong that seems to be what HP has been setting forth. Children are innocent, good, and man cannot become sinful until he does sin. Why? Because he is born good. There is an innate goodness in man. That is the essence of humanism.

BTW, there are many Christians that believe in evolution. Creation is not the issue here, HP.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Post #124 is the one DHK has completely avoided Thinkingstuff.

 

[DHK]

DHK, here we go again with off the wall charges that do not have the least shred of truth in them. If you think that my beliefs in any way are ‘humanistic’ that simply shows your ignorance of what humanism entails. Marcia, help him out.

I don't need help. I answered you from your own statements. I quoted you.

Are you going to tell us that by calling a creation of God ‘good’ I am in any way necessitating or making mention of a moral nature as being righteous? You might consider reading the 1rst chapter of Gen. again. Scriptures clearly show every creation of God, with or without moral capacity as being created good. God inspired Scripture DHK and God is no humanist, neither does God make any junk DHK.

First, you made no mention of God's creation.
Second, you were speaking of man sovereignty in moral decisions.
Third, you were also speaking of man's innocence in the Garden, and thus also when and up until the time he sins.

Thus the conclusion that man is essentially good (or the goodness of man), which is humanism. Once man rejects the depravity of man, or the sinful state of man, what other choice does he have?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sorry DHK all I have access to is my iPhone. More later.

 

[DHK]

HP: If one happens to choose morally right as opposed to sin, how is that possible if the sin nature causes him to sin? What force makes it possible to overcome the force you say causes him to sin? If it is possible to choose in opposition to ones nature, how can it be said his nature causes him to choose sin??

Is it possible for a human being, not even saved, to make a proper moral choice?( not that it would make a significant change in his over-all moral character) If it is possible, would you conclude that a benevolent force would have to reign in that choice, making it possible for him to overcome a sinful outcome?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Proverbs 21:4 An high look, and a proud heart, and the plowing of the wicked, is sin.

There is none righteous no, not one.

There is none that doeth good, no, not one.

The answer to your question is "NO". Even what man considers good, is wicked in God's eyes. There is nothing that he can do that is good. Even the plowing of a field, the planting of seed, the growing of a crop and harvesting it, to feed the population of the world is evil. Why? Because he is evil. All of his righteousnesses are as filthy rags. There is nothing he can do to please God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thanks DHK. Maybe I should limit myself to my iPhone to learn brevity in posting.

 

[Victorious]

Adam was quick to play the blame game.....It was the WOMAN YOU gave me!

Hmmm....has anything really changed? :tongue3:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

1. I asked: If one happens to choose morally right as opposed to sin, how is that possible if the sin nature causes him to sin?

DHK is it your response that NNE can choose to act morally right? Is that honestly your answer?

2. I asked: What force makes it possible to overcome the force you say causes him to sin? If it is possible to choose in opposition to ones nature, how can it be said his nature causes him to choose sin??

DHK, am I understanding you correctly that it is impossible for anyone to overcome the sinful nature or temptation to sin? That is precisely what you seem to be saying to me. Am I correct in my assumption?

3. I asked: Is it possible for a human being, not even saved, to make a proper moral choice?

DHK your response seem to be that it is impossible for one to make a right moral choice. Again, just to be certain this is your final answer, am I understanding you correctly?

 

[DHK]

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

In God's sight there is nothing that we can do that will please him or merit his favor until we trust him as Savior. Up until that point all of our righteousnesses are counted as filthy rags in his sight--useless or of no value.
After one is saved, then one is able to lay up treasure in heaven.
We are saved for the purpose of doing good works, but good works has no purpose in salvation, and will not count toward salvation. In fact they are just as filthy rags before salvation.

 

[DHK]

1. I asked: If one happens to choose morally right as opposed to sin, how is that possible if the sin nature causes him to sin?

DHK is it your response that NNE can choose to act morally righ? Is that honestly your answer?

Even the plowing of the wicked is sin in God's eyes. What he deems to be morally right is still sin because he is separated from God. He has rejected Christ. He lives in rebellion against God.
For example, a Muslim may do "good" by raising crops to feed his family. But in reality he is feeding more Muslims, propagating others to fight against God. He is still doing wickedness in God's sight.

2. I asked: What force makes it possible to overcome the force you say causes him to sin? If it is possible to choose in opposition to ones nature, how can it be said his nature causes him to choose sin??

His nature causes him to sin because it is depraved, sinful in and of itself. If given the choice he will make a carnal choice most of the time. A thief does not run toward the police station. It is against his nature. Neither does the unsaved run toward God. A leopard cannot change his spots, and man, being evil cannot become good apart from the saving grace of God.

DHK, am I understanding you correctly that it is impossible for anyone to overcome the sinful nature or temptation to sin? That is precisely what you seem to be saying to me. Am I correct in my assumption?

It is impossible for man to change his nature apart from God's grace, and accepting Christ as his Savior. He cannot overcome his sinful nature. If you read Romans 7, Paul had a struggle with that sinful nature even as a saved individual. As an unsaved individual he doesn't have the Holy Spirit to have a struggle. He simply has the sinful nature. There is no struggle. He lives according to his sinful flesh, and that is all.

Romans 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

3. I asked: Is it possible for a human being, not even saved, to make a proper moral choice?

Morality belongs to God. God sets the standard for our morals. So the answer is no. See Romans 8:8 above. They cannot please God. They can only make a choice that will be a selfish choice that may seem good, but the intention is selfish.

DHK your response seem to be that it is impossible for one to make a right moral choice. Again, just to be certain this is your final answer, am I understanding you correctly?

In God's sight, yes. It is impossible to please God in the flesh. Morality belongs to God. One cannot make a moral choice that pleases God if he is not saved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

I asked three questions. You still have not answered #1 directly that I can tell.

On the second question you are extremely vague at best. Would you say how I interpreted what you said concerning #2 is actually how you feel? A simple yes or no would suffice.

I believe I understand you on #3. I interpret what you are saying is that it is impossible for a sinner to act in a morally upright manner period.

I am trying my dead level best to understand your viewpoints. I do not desire to be accused of misrepresenting your views.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Let me ask the other readers a question while DHK responds to my last post. If one believes one as a sinner can do absolutely nothing but sin, and it is impossible for a sinner to anything morally right, would it not stand to reason one would have to be converted antecedent to turning to God? If he was still a sinner he could turn nowhere, remember, he can do 'nothing' but sin. Help me out here.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff, what is your take on the answers to my first two questions to DHK? Did he honestly answer the first one and was the second one concise enough for you to undertand his position?

 

[Marcia]

Have a nice evening Marcia. Come back when you feel those nagging questions returning......and they will, trust me. :wavey:

Hate to disappoint you but whatever "nagging questions" in this area that you are referring to have yet to come, much less return. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Patience is a virtue Marcia:smilewinkgrin:

Can you help DHK out on what constitutes humanism? Thanks in advance. :thumbsup:

And don't forget to take a peek at the dead souls thread. I need your input.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Johnv: Not necessarily. Belief in the goodness of man sans the depravity of man would constitute huminism. Belief in the goodness of man weighed with the depravity of man isn't.

HP: I have been waiting for someone to comment on this post.

One thing is for certain, I have never denied the depravity of man. Nothing can be clearer. I simply refuse to place the depravity of man within the will of man, for to do so establishes a system of necessity. The will itself is the mere chooser, not a depository of moral character. It must remain free to do something other than it does or praise or blame is absurd. I place the depravity in the sensibilities, acting as a proclivity or strong inclination to sin, but not sin itself. Only as we willing yield to the depraved sensibilities is sin conceived. James points this out clearly.

 

[Marcia]

Patience is a virtue Marcia:smilewinkgrin:

Are you implying I need patience? This seems to be a non-sequiter.

Can you help DHK out on what constitutes humanism? Thanks in advance.

I don't have time to read this thread or all his posts, but I'm sure he knows what it is.

And don't forget to take a peek at the dead souls thread. I need your input

Dead souls? Okay, I'll take a look.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia I will make it easy on you. DHK accuses me of promoting humanism because I stated God created all of my children good. He thinks he knows what humanism is, but just between me and you he need serious help. You don't have to tell him I asked you to comment. It can just be our little secret. :smilewinkgrin: