Did Adam reach age of responsibility before

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Can anyone show us one definition in Scripture of sin that depicts it as an inherited trait?

 

[DHK]

It is an absolute impossibility to 'repent' or even have remorse for something unavoidable. Sin is not unavoidable nor is it an inherited trait from Adam or any other.

I guess you didn't read my post very well did you.
Let me ask you again.
Have you ever confessed your sinfulness to the Lord?
Have you ever confessed that you are a sinner unworthy to approach Him?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

"Sin is the transgression of the law." What law does one transgress by being born?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Certainly I have confessed my sins before the Lord. Are you questioning my salvation? It certainly would appear that way.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Let me direct my question to DHK.
"Sin is the transgression of the law." What law does one transgress by being born?

 

[DHK]

Can anyone show us one definition in Scripture of sin that depicts it as an inheited trait?

That is the question that started this conversation. Remember?

I answered, There is no such color as green either.
If I did show you any Scripture would you believe it. I also went on to make the challenge that I will show Scripture and you would refuse to accept it.

I gave you Scripture. I was right. You refused to accept it. You refused just like an atheist refuses to accept the Bible as the Word of God. It is not that the teaching isn't there. It is. You just don't want to accept it. No matter how much Scripture I present to you--Romans chapter 7, Romans chapter 8, Psalm 51, Psalm 58, etc. you won't accept it. It is a fruitless debate when one side doesn't even consider the Scriptures given. Your mind is made up. You are closed-minded. This thread might as well be closed, locked, and forever shut down. There is no use in going on. Nothing will change your mind.

 

[DHK]

Let me direct my question to DHK.
"Sin is the transgression of the law." What law does one transgress by being born?

"Oh wretched man that I am, who shall deliver me from the body of this death."
"It is not I, but sin that dwelleth in me."

It is not the law, but the curse of sin; the curse that Adam brought upon the entire human race. We live under a curse. When one receives Christ as Savior part of that curse is removed, but only part. It will never be fully removed until Christ comes again and restores the earth when he sets up his Millennial Kingdom, when the resurrection takes place, when each believer receives a new body.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Why are you questioning my salvation by asking if I have ever repented? Is that not clearly against the rules of this forum?

 

[DHK]

Why are you questioning my salvation by asking if I have ever repented? Is that not clearly against the rules of this forum?

I didn't question your salvation, and your complaint shows that you do not read my posts very well. No wonder you reject what I say. You don't even read carefully what I say.

Here is what I said:

Have you ever confessed your sinfulness to the Lord?
Have you ever confessed that you are a sinner unworthy to approach Him?

That has nothing to do with one's salvation, but rather with one's prayer life. David confessed his sinfulness in Psalm 51:5. He didn't question his salvation. Paul confessed his sinfulness at various times in Scripture. He never questioned his salvation. Why do you accuse me of questioning yours?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Yes, I can read DHK. Nice attempt to change the equation after the fact. You asked me if I have ever repented, without any qualification of being asked concerning subsequent to salvation as you now inject.

 

[Marcia]

It is an absolute impossibility to 'repent' or even have remorse for something unavoidable. Sin is not unavoidable nor is it an inherited trait from Adam or any other.

Then why does God tells us to repent?

 

[DHK]

Yes, I can read DHK. Nice attempt to change the equation after the fact. You asked me if I have ever repented, without any qualification of being asked concerning subsequent to salvation as you now inject.

Don't accuse without quoting me first.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

QUOTE: DHK: Let me ask you again.
Have you ever confessed your sinfulness to the Lord?
Have you ever confessed that you are a sinner unworthy to approach Him?

HP: You never qualified or suggested in any way that you were asking of a time period subsequent to salvation. Moving right along.........

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The text found in Psalm 51:5 has been raised as in support of original sin or universal moral constitutional depravity.

First, the context as I see it. David is crying out to the Lord concerning his own heart. He is pouring out his heart for God to wash him from his sin, and his iniquity. He acknowledges his personal transgressions, and is reminded every moment of his sin. He recognizes that his sin is against God alone, and the evil that he sees as his sin is something he has done. In verse 4 he states, “Against Thee only have I sinned and done this evil in Thy sight.” This indicates to me that David is expressing remorse for his own personal acts of evil before God and God alone. Just the same, as we enter verse 5 it would appear to me that his focus changes from himself and his own sin, to what he sees as a factor in finding himself in need of the forgiveness of his personal sins and acts of wickedness. The question is, is it the commonly held idea of original sin that he is expressing, or something else? I believe from the plain reading of the text, there is a different source of influence that he points to as opposed to OS. He shifts the focus from himself to the way he was ‘shapen’ and in particular his mothers actions. “ Behold I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did ‘MY MOTHER’ conceive me.”

Webdog suggested that the word, “shapen” means “brought forth.” I believe that to be a good explanation of the word. It says that he was ‘brought forth’ in iniquity. The first thing I would suggest, is that I see nothing that would suggest that David was establishing or suggesting any ‘universal’ context by this passage, but rather was speaking directly to his own life and his own circumstances. Can you imagine how one could misconstrue Scripture, if every time an author spoke in the first person, we would extrapolate it to be universally applied notion? The verse does say that the circumstances he was ‘brought forth’ in was indeed ‘in iniquity.’ We will look at this further in a moment. For now, I will simply conclude that for one, this passage is not a passage that can be applied universally, but rather is one individual pouring out his heart in repentance speaking to his own circumstances surrounding his birth.

The latter portion of this verse states that ‘in sin did my mother conceive me.” This is the most revealing portion of the text, but remains one of which a great difference of opinions arise. I would only ask of the reader to once again look at this verse apart from any preconceived notions of OS and open their minds for a simple explanation that I believe sheds great light upon this passage.

The question can be raised, how could have David’s mother conceived him in sin? Are their any distinct possibilities apart from this relating to the dogma of OS? I say absolutely. If one is to just read the text, it in no way suggests a sinful constitution on the part of humanity in the least, but relates the fact that even from his conception, sin was involved. David simply states that he was conceived in sin by his mother. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand how that is done, especially in light of all the talk on this list surrounding adultery and fornication. There is, I believe, much supporting evidence to support this idea, although within the confines of our discussion, when we are trying to limit our positions to those clearly established by the passage alone, should not be included at this time.

I believe that with just the information we can gather thus far, utilizing simply the words and context of this passage apart from any presuppositions of OS, a fair minded individual can say with confidence, this passage of Scripture does not lend itself to any universal idea of OS as is so widely taught and accepted.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Psalm 58: If one would take the time to read this short Psalm in it’s entirety, one would come to the plain truth that this Psalm was NOT written in any way to support some notion of original sin or inherited depravity, not only because of the context but the fact that the Jews did not hold to inherited depravity in the least. There was no place in their theology for such a notion. Original sin was simply foreign to them.

The context of the Psalm clearly indicates two groups of individuals being addressed. From verse 3-9 David addresses the wicked and speaks clearly to their final destruction. David cries out to God to let “every one of them pass away that they may not see the sun.” He proclaims that God is going to destroy ‘all’ of them and wash His feet in their blood. Are we to believe that God is going to wash His feet in the blood of innocent babies, millions of which are the product of the abortionist’s knife? God help us!

Starting with verse 10-11, David shifts his focus from the wicked and onto the righteous. He states, “10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

One thing is clear. David is not trying to establish a dogma of original sin in this text in the least, but rather is simply contrasting the wicked with the righteous. He in NO way insinuates or states that the righteous are as the wicked, neither in birth nor in life.

In simple terms, David was just expressing in poetic terms that the wicked appeared to be wicked from the earliest light of moral agency, and that as soon as they were able to understand and communicate, even from a very early age, they appeared to him to be engaging in wickedness. Nothing in this passage establishes any such idea as original sin would indicate and DHK wrongly assumes.

 

[Amy.G]

HP, I'm curious. Why do you think we die?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Then why does God tells us to repent?

HP: God commands us to repent because we are willful rebels, not merely necessitated victims of our so-called sinful nature.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Amy: Why do you think we die?

HP: First, all do NOT die. Enoch and Elijah never saw death. Those taken away at the rapture to meet the Lord in the air will not see physical death as we know it now, or at least it would appear that they will not. So much for ‘all’ dying.

Amy, you have a sharp intellect. Ask yourself if this world was created immortal or finite. Scripture sys if we can see it, it is mortal and will pass away. This earth was created as a finite place, not an infinite one. You cannot place beings that are created to exist infinitely on a finite planet unless at some point you are going to remove them. The earth represents a finite amount of space. I fully believe if Adam would not have sinned, he would have had to be translated at some point in time even if he was sinless the whole time.

Because of sin, God instituted a shorter life span, and even physical death. Death is bred into our genes by physical generation, and as a member of the fallen human race we can expect to see death if the Lord does not return. The Scriptures state physical death passed upon all men because all have sinned. We would do well to remember that physical death is not the penalty for sin, and infants, who have never sinned still may and often do see physical death. We also know at times God can bring sudden death directly subsequent to certain sins or at any other time He sees fit to bring it to pass for reasons known only to Him. Physical death, in and of itself, is not necessarily due to personal sin, nor as judgment for any particular sin necessarily,(although as Scripture informs us it may be at times) but rather physical death is a natural consequence subsequent to the sins of our first parents. As the physical offspring of Adam, we inherit the physical death as a consequence of sin. (not necessarily as a penalty) It is indeed passed down by physical depravity from generation to generation.

 

[Marcia]

HP: First, all do NOT die. Enoch and Elijah never saw death. Those taken away at the rapture to meet the Lord in the air will not see physical death as we know it now, or at least it would appear that they will not. So much for ‘all’ dying.

Marcia, you have a sharp intellect. Ask yourself if this world was created immortal or finite. Scripture sys if we can see it, it is mortal and will pass away. This earth was created as a finite place, not an infinite one. You cannot place beings that are created to exist infinitely on a finite planet unless at some point you are going to remove them. The earth represents a finite amount of space. I fully believe if Adam would not have sinned, he would have had to be translated at some point in time even if he was sinless the whole time.

Because of sin, God instituted a shorter life span, and even physical death. Death is bred into our genes by physical generation, and as a member of the fallen human race we can expect to see death if the Lord does not return. The Scriptures state physical death passed upon all men because all have sinned. We would do well to remember that physical death is not the penalty for sin, and infants, who have never sinned still may and often do see physical death. We also know at times God can bring sudden death directly subsequent to certain sins or at any other time He sees fit to bring it to pass for reasons known only to Him. Physical death, in and of itself, is not necessarily due to personal sin, nor as judgment for any particular sin necessarily,(although as Scripture informs us it may be at times) but rather physical death is a natural consequence subsequent to the sins of our first parents. As the physical offspring of Adam, we inherit the physical death as a consequence of sin. (not necessarily as a penalty) It is indeed passed down by physical depravity from generation to generation.

HP, I did not ask this question. Amy did but you put my name on this question. Please be more careful.

 

[Marcia]

HP: God commands us to repent because we are willful rebels, not merely necessitated victims of our so-called sinful nature.

The Bible tells us to repent because we are sinners. You said this:

It is an absolute impossibility to 'repent' or even have remorse for something unavoidable. Sin is not unavoidable nor is it an inherited trait from Adam or any other.

We are to repent of our sins; this is what the Bible tells us but you seem to disagree.