Can man desire to be reconciled to God?

[Skandelon]

Calvinists here have argued that mankind has the ability to believe the gospel, but without first being regenerated, they would never have the desire.

However, does the bible ever really teach this?

Doesn't the bible say such things as "the truth with set you free"..."the gospel is the power of God unto Salvation"... "sharper than a two edged sword"...and all the other texts that talk about the power of the WORD?

How could this powerful WORD not have the ability to create a new desire? Is the Word not really sufficient to save if the Calvinistic dogma is correct?

 

[David Michael Harris]

I would say yes. Before I was a Christian I was looking for the answer to life etc, smoked dope, did a lot of lsd, was a bit of a hippy. I was looking but in all the wrong directions.

Last thing we will look for is holiness.

My belief is that God saw my pathetic efforts and had pity on me. He brought me to Someone who said I am the way the truth and the life.

We are also told in Acts that God wants people to search and find Him.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Calvinists here have argued that mankind has the ability to believe the gospel, but without first being regenerated, they would never have the desire.

However, does the bible ever really teach this?

Doesn't the bible say such things as "the truth with set you free"..."the gospel is the power of God unto Salvation"... "sharper than a two edged sword"...and all the other texts that talk about the power of the WORD?

How could this powerful WORD not have the ability to create a new desire? Is the Word not really sufficient to save if the Calvinistic dogma is correct?

Hello, skan:

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation - will result in eternal salvation ONLY if the gospel was the one crucified, died, was buried, risen, and ascended. Is it the gospel ?

Finally, I will come again to Romans 15:4, with regards to your Hebrew citation, that the Scriptures were written for the instruction of God's people and to them, this is a two-edged sword, revealing them for what they are: sinners under the mercy of God.

You can preach all you want to the unregenerate, and all you will get is a smirk, a pretense to listen, out of respect perhaps, but it does not affect them, at all.
On the other hand, you can preach powerfully before a congregation of regenerate, believing sinners, and you find that your preaching results in conviction, or edification, and that it affects you, the speaker, as much as them, the listeners.

 

[David Michael Harris]

One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
(Act 16:14)

Obviously not a Christian but was made one. The Lords choice.

 

[webdog]

You can preach all you want to the unregenerate, and all you will get is a smirk, a pretense to listen, out of respect perhaps, but it does not affect them, at all.

So the Gospel is not the power of God unto salvation? You just removed all power from the Gospel and the Word. Did Christ raise Lazarus from the dead, or did He need help before Lazarus was able to come forth?

 

[webdog]

One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
(Act 16:14)

Obviously not a Christian but was made one. The Lords choice.

Acts 17:26 states she was put in that location in time to seek Him. That was the Lord's choice.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Acts 17:26 states she was put in that location in time to seek Him. That was the Lord's choice.

I agree.......... need to add so the minimum post is allowed

 

[Skandelon]

So the Gospel is not the power of God unto salvation? You just removed all power from the Gospel and the Word. Did Christ raise Lazarus from the dead, or did He need help before Lazarus was able to come forth?

EXACTLY!!!

That is point I'm driving at here. Calvinists remove ALL power from the WORD and give it to some secret "irresistible calling." In the Calvinistic system the truth doesn't set anyone free, only the regeneration sets them free to hear the truth.

Now, I would accept this IF the scripture EVER taught it, but it doesn't.

Can ANY Calvinists provide scripture that says man cannot believe the Holy Spirit wrought truth of the gospel message? I mean think about it. People can believe Buddhism which is not truth and has no power, why would anyone ASSUME that people cannot believe the gospel truth? What prevents mankind from believing the powerful truth of God while still allowing them to believe the lies of this world? It makes no sense to believe that men are unable to willingly believe unless the scriptures clearly teach us that. It never does.

 

[pinoybaptist]

So the Gospel is not the power of God unto salvation? You just removed all power from the Gospel and the Word. Did Christ raise Lazarus from the dead, or did He need help before Lazarus was able to come forth?

you haven't answered the question. was it the gospel who was crucified, or was it Christ ? I believe Christ asked a similar question to Pharisees: is it the gold that sanctified the temple, or is it the temple that sanctified the gold ?

I asked a similar question to an aunt years ago before I was converted and became a believer. If Christ is the One who died on the cross and is the Savior, then why are we praying to and devoted to Mary ?

And the salvation of which the gospel is the power of is gospel salvation, not eternal salvation of which Christ alone is the possessor of honor and glory and of which Christ alone is the Author.

The gospel converts and thus has the power unto salvation from false teachings, false religions, and an ungodly life, all of which were present in the lives of Paul's addressees.

So now it's my turn, webdog, much as I respect you, to say: you have just stripped Christ of all His power and glory, and transferred these to the good news, the gospel.

 

[pinoybaptist]

EXACTLY!!!

That is point I'm driving at here. Calvinists remove ALL power from the WORD and give it to some secret "irresistible calling." In the Calvinistic system the truth doesn't set anyone free, only the regeneration sets them free to hear the truth.

Now, I would accept this IF the scripture EVER taught it, but it doesn't.

Can ANY Calvinists provide scripture that says man cannot believe the Holy Spirit wrought truth of the gospel message? I mean think about it. People can believe Buddhism which is not truth and has no power, why would anyone ASSUME that people cannot believe the gospel truth? What prevents mankind from believing the powerful truth of God while still allowing them to believe the lies of this world? It makes no sense to believe that men are unable to willingly believe unless the scriptures clearly teach us that. It never does.

Since I am an adherent to the Doctrine of Grace with very close similarities to Calvinists, I will say that on the contrary, we simply give all the honor and glory to God and Christ, and none to man, the gospel, or the messengers.

 

[webdog]

It is a slap in the Savior's face to state He, and He alone cannot raise the dead...but the Holy Spirit FIRST needs to regenerate a person to respond to Him. It heretically places one Godhead over the other! I'm glad I left this doctrine and stopped defending God's sovereignty in the reformed model, as it is anything but. The "doctrines of sovereign grace" greatly harm God's sovereignty.

 

[webdog]

you haven't answered the question. was it the gospel who was crucified, or was it Christ ? I believe Christ asked a similar question to Pharisees: is it the gold that sanctified the temple, or is it the temple that sanctified the gold ?

I asked a similar question to an aunt years ago before I was converted and became a believer. If Christ is the One who died on the cross and is the Savior, then why are we praying to and devoted to Mary ?

And the salvation of which the gospel is the power of is gospel salvation, not eternal salvation of which Christ alone is the possessor of honor and glory and of which Christ alone is the Author.

The gospel converts and thus has the power unto salvation from false teachings, false religions, and an ungodly life, all of which were present in the lives of Paul's addressees.

So now it's my turn, webdog, much as I respect you, to say: you have just stripped Christ of all His power and glory, and transferred these to the good news, the gospel.

Since Scripture is God breathed, I will hold to the fact a man can be born again from hearing God's Word...and I think I'm in good company...1 Cor. 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. Your questions are non sequitur's...

 

[pinoybaptist]

Since Scripture is God breathed, I will hold to the fact a man can be born again from hearing God's Word...and I think I'm in good company...1 Cor. 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. Your questions are non sequitur's...

I take that to mean you're danged if you do, and danged if you don't.

 

[Skandelon]

Since I am an adherent to the Doctrine of Grace with very close similarities to Calvinists, I will say that on the contrary, we simply give all the honor and glory to God and Christ, and none to man, the gospel, or the messengers.

So you don't follow the biblical example?

For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'

John 12:26: Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

• Romans 2:7 NIVTo those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
• Romans 2:10 NIV but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.
• Romans 12:10 NIVBe devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.
• Romans 13:7 NIV Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

These are just a few examples of where God shows us that is even expected for us to give man honor. Calvinism appears to be so righteous because it always talks about giving all credit to God, but that simply is not biblical.

Abraham believed and it was CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

When Jesus rebuked his disciples for their lack of faith, shouldn't he have really rebuked God for not giving them enough faith if indeed its ALL God? Your system my sound better because always puts men down and lift's God up, but you must remain true to the bible and that is simply not biblical. Read Heb 11 and you will see man getting credit/reward/praise for their faith. So, why are you not willing to do that which the scripture does?

 

[pinoybaptist]

It is a slap in the Savior's face to state He, and He alone cannot raise the dead...but the Holy Spirit FIRST needs to regenerate a person to respond to Him.

No one denies the Savior raises the dead, but so can the Father, and the Holy Spirit, because these are One in Three, and are one in power, intent, purpose, and works.
However, even the Son was raised by the Spirit from the grave, if I understand Romans 1:3 correctly, and Elijah (or Elisha ?) raised a small girl from the dead, or are you going to contest that, and that not by his own power, or will you say otherwise.

It heretically places one Godhead over the other!

True. But point to one who does that on this board.

I'm glad I left this doctrine and stopped defending God's sovereignty in the reformed model, as it is anything but.

Oh, so you, like Skandelon, were once a Reformed something ?
yeah, right.
and I lived during the time of Billy the Kid.

The "doctrines of sovereign grace" greatly harm God's sovereignty.

On the contrary, it raises God to where He should be, high above all else, no one higher, and man, to where he should be, way down below God's feet.

 

[Skandelon]

Oh, so you, like Skandelon, were once a Reformed something ?
yeah, right.
and I lived during the time of Billy the Kid.

Why is it so difficult for Calvinists to believe that someone could have believed Reformed theology and then change their minds? Do they equate it with salvation and assume "if they leave us they were never one of us?"

I mean, it just takes a brief overview of history to see that Arminianism, the movement that made Calvinism and the TULIP popular in the first place, was a bunch of former Calvinists who began to question and turn from these teachings. It has been happening for generations Pinoybaptist, get used to it. People who read and understand the context of scripture will begin to question unbiblical teachings, period.

 

[zrs6v4]

The Gospel is the power unto salvation, but not just words. People can believe, but wont believe in the way that saves them. Just look at the church, people are dead and blind without God making it possible. Christ, The Father, The Spirit all are One in that He alone can give life.

Ps. 14 Nobody seeks God.
John 3:3 unless born again you cant see the Kingdom or enter it
John 6:44 Nobody comes to God unless drawn
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words I have spoken to you are spirit and life
John 6:64 This is why He said that you must be drawn by the Father
John 6:37-40 all the Father gives are delivered and upheld by the power of God from beginning to end.
1 Peter 1:23-25 We are born again "through" the word preached to us

So with that said I believe that you are right that the Gospel is the power and the only way someone can be saved. Now I do not think mere words alone are enough to lead someone to totally cry out to God for mercy with their lives, desiring to come to God forever to serve and worship Him.

If it were just the words that people responded to, what do you think God's role in this is?

Just the words would mean that the drawing power of God only rests in the bride or worse an unborn blind sinner. I think and am confident that the Spirit and the Bride must call people (Rev 22:17). We preach and God perfectly teaches the heart (John 6:45 and we all will be taught by God.. those who come to Him that is) by effectually calling or in my opinion by simply shining the light of Himself. One anyone not agree that a glimpse of God would change everyone for eternity?

Can ANY Calvinists provide scripture that says man cannot believe the Holy Spirit wrought truth of the gospel message?
I think I did. Can you show a verse that says "people can believe the Gospel and radically change without the Spirit of God opening their eyes?"

 

[pinoybaptist]

So you don't follow the biblical example?

For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'

Oh, I have honored my father and mother when they were living. But if they were living now, that I am a convert from Roman Catholicism and a believer in the One true God, we will part ways if they insist on following the man in Rome, for the Bible says also: But thou we, or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed (Galatians 1:8).

John 12:26: Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

I serve Christ in my spirit, and in truth, not the gospel, or the gospel messengers. They have their place in God's kingdom, but Christ alone reigns, and if you deny that, I dare you to say it now.

Romans 2:7 NIVTo those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

So, eternal life is now by good works ? Explain this verse according to your theology.

Romans 12:10 NIVBe devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

Honor one another above yourselves. Really. Uhmmmmm. And I suppose this is being followed on this board by everyone, given the veiled and implied insults on the integrity, faith, persons, and mental state of one to another ?

These are just a few examples of where God shows us that is even expected for us to give man honor.

Yes, and to live peaceably with one another, too, but do we do that here ? No. We insult each other here.

Calvinism appears to be so righteous because it always talks about giving all credit to God, but that simply is not biblical.

all HONOR and POWER and GLORY belong to God alone, that is everywhere in the Bible. Crediting a man for any accomplishment is fine, but when it comes to the eternal standing of a man and WHY ? that is God's alone, not some good news, not some good news bearer.

Abraham believed and it was CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

by whom ? Are we allowed to credit righteousness to anyone ?

When Jesus rebuked his disciples for their lack of faith, shouldn't he have really rebuked God for not giving them enough faith if indeed its ALL God?

And when Jesus lamented about Jerusalem, was He lamenting them that "they would not" because they had the power to resist Him, or was He simply stating a fact about the city's spiritual condition ?

Your system my sound better because always puts men down and lift's God up, but you must remain true to the bible and that is simply not biblical.

Your system may be better, webdog's may be best, winman's may be tops, who cares, really ? Is Christ going to stand at the door with a checklist and ask me if I was Arminian or Calvinist or DoG, Pelagian, or Semi-Pelagian, Primitive Baptist or Missionary Baptist, Progressive Primitive Baptist or Missionist Primitive Baptist, or Lutheran or Episcopalian or Free Thinker or what and assign me a place in heaven according to my theology, or reject me and send me to the "other" place ?

Hell, no. Ooopss. there I said the name of the place.
Not one of us wise-behinds on this board is going to make it to heaven because we were good at defending our positions, or at insulting others whom Christ died for.

We are all going through those pearly gates because the blood, the blood, the blooooood, redeemed us, and because our names are in the Lamb's Book of Life written from before the foundation of the world. Before Queen Cassiophea's chair was in the skies, or Mars, or Uranus, or the Sun, or the moon or the big dipper, or Haley's comet, way, way before they were there.

I argue and debate and discuss to sharpen my iron, because understanding my theology better from having defended it increases my dependence on the Lamb who died in my stead.

Not so I can come out with the Medal of Honor, or have the satisfaction of having trumped somebody down (no reference to Donald).

Read Heb 11 and you will see man getting credit/reward/praise for their faith. So, why are you not willing to do that which the scripture does?

Because promotion comes neither from the east or west, but from the Lord, and I care not what man says of my faith.
Those people were credited their faith by the Lord, from whom that faith came.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Why is it so difficult for Calvinists to believe that someone could have believed Reformed theology and then change their minds? Do they equate it with salvation and assume "if they leave us they were never one of us?"

I mean, it just takes a brief overview of history to see that Arminianism, the movement that made Calvinism and the TULIP popular in the first place, was a bunch of former Calvinists who began to question and turn from these teachings. It has been happening for generations Pinoybaptist, get used to it. People who read and understand the context of scripture will begin to question unbiblical teachings, period.

I mean that if we were once something or the other, then put it all under the blood of Christ.
If you want to pray winman's prayer, that he thanks God he is not like Calvinists, then speak to yourself and tell that to God.
This is the INTERNET.
Do you know me ?
Do I know you ?
Do I know webdog ?
No, man, we don't know each other.
How the dickens am I to know you are who you say you are.
I mean an atheist, wise in the ways and doctrines of either Arminian or Calvinist, can register here and proclaim himself a Christian and engage us all in a debate and lead the debate where he wants it to go.
So when people start saying some things about themselves, to the detriment of others and others' doctrines, I take it with a huge ladleful of salt.

 

[Winman]

Hello, skan:

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation - will result in eternal salvation ONLY if the gospel was the one crucified, died, was buried, risen, and ascended. Is it the gospel ?

Finally, I will come again to Romans 15:4, with regards to your Hebrew citation, that the Scriptures were written for the instruction of God's people and to them, this is a two-edged sword, revealing them for what they are: sinners under the mercy of God.

You can preach all you want to the unregenerate, and all you will get is a smirk, a pretense to listen, out of respect perhaps, but it does not affect them, at all.
On the other hand, you can preach powerfully before a congregation of regenerate, believing sinners, and you find that your preaching results in conviction, or edification, and that it affects you, the speaker, as much as them, the listeners.

To believe Calvinism, one must blind themselves to reality. It is clear many thousands of unsaved people seek God. Here is a photo from a Billy Graham crusade. Calvinism would have you believe that every single person in this crowd was regenerated to have the desire to be saved, and that each one would be irresistably saved.

Calvinism is utter nonsense and a person must delude themselves to deny reality to believe it.