Can man desire to be reconciled to God?

[Skandelon]

chew on these and spit them out if it burns your tongues:

Romans 3:9-12 - What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.

And?

If you told me your son didn't have the ability to call you because he didn't have your phone number, should I also assume that your child doesn't have the ability to answer the phone if you call him?

See my point? This passage proves that men ON THEIR OWN don't seek God and remain evil. WE ALL AGREE WITH THIS POINT. Now, find the verse that tells us that when God seeks to save the lost by sending the Holy Spirit wrought gospel truth through his bride (the church) that men can't respond in faith.

Jeremiah 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"

Ecclesiastes 9:3 - Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Titus 1:15-16 - to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.

Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.

Again, this supports the doctrine of Original Sin, something Arminians have never questioned. Let's focus on Total Inability. Not one of these verses say anything about men being unable to change with the help of God. BTW, we both believe that God must do something. We just believe that the gospel is that something and you believe that there must be regeneration. These passage don't even begin to address the need for regeneration for the gospel to have an effect. Keep looking.

Have fun twisting them to prove man is basically good and not totally depraved.
Happy New Year.

Happy New Year to you too. No one has ever claimed that men are basically good. That is a stawman attack and you know it. You condemn Winman for that but you do it too. Be honest with the discussion and I will try to do the same. We are all born with a sin nature, but that does not prove men are unable to respond to a message of reconciliation from God. Why haven't you dealt with all the passages that I provided showing you how men have "grown calloused" and "become blind." How does that fit in with your claim that all men are born totally blind and calloused?

 

[zrs6v4]

And?

If you told me your son didn't have the ability to call you because he didn't have your phone number, should I also assume that your child doesn't have the ability to answer the phone if you call him?

See my point? This passage proves that men ON THEIR OWN don't seek God and remain evil. WE ALL AGREE WITH THIS POINT. Now, find the verse that tells us that when God seeks to save the lost by sending the Holy Spirit wrought gospel truth through his bride (the church) that men can't respond in faith.




Again, this supports the doctrine of Original Sin, something Arminians have never questioned. Let's focus on Total Inability. Not one of these verses say anything about men being unable to change with the help of God. BTW, we both believe that God must do something. We just believe that the gospel is that something and you believe that there must be regeneration. These passage don't even begin to address the need for regeneration for the gospel to have an effect. Keep looking.



Happy New Year to you too. No one has ever claimed that men are basically good. That is a stawman attack and you know it. You condemn Winman for that but you do it too. Be honest with the discussion and I will try to do the same. We are all born with a sin nature, but that does not prove men are unable to respond to a message of reconciliation from God. Why haven't you dealt with all the passages that I provided showing you how men have "grown calloused" and "become blind." How does that fit in with your claim that all men are born totally blind and calloused?

Im not sure he will be back, so Ill answer your questions hopefully

1. The ability to turn to God is there, the ability to trust Christ is there. The problem is that nobody exercises this and thus are depraved in their souls. If God did His part and just left the Word alone to us, then what is the Spirit's role (I asked this question back on page two)?

2. Again I ask you the same question you ask, where does the Scripture say we can come to God without the Spirit?

3. please go back to page 2 and respond to my post. It will help me understand where your coming from here. thanks

 

[Winman]

Yes, Skandelon asks a very simple question.

Why would God have to harden and blind the unregenerate. Why? According to your doctrine, they are 100% unable to respond to God, so why would God have to further harden and blind them?

I would love to see how Calvinists answer this very simple question.

 

[Skandelon]

Yes, Skandelon asks a very simple question.

Why would God have to harden and blind the unregenerate. Why? According to your doctrine, they are 100% unable to respond to God, so why would God have to further harden and blind them?

I would love to see how Calvinists answer this very simple question.

Maybe because the world "TOTAL" in Total Depravity doesn't really mean "TOTAL" just like "all" doesn't really mean "all" and "God's not being willing for any to perish" is not really "God's desire for all to be saved."

Why else would God need to blind a man born totally blind? Why would God want to send a "spirit of stupor" to a man without any spiritual ability to respond at all? Why would Jesus speak in parables to hide the truth when he is speaking to spiritual corpses who couldn't understand and believe anyway? Doesn't make much sense does it?

 

[Winman]

2. Again I ask you the same question you ask, where does the Scripture say we can come to God without the Spirit?

This is a deceptive tactic I see Calvinists use over and over. No non-Cal says men are not drawn by the Holy Spirit.

The difference is, the non-Cal believes the unregenerate can respond to the Holy Spirit's calling from the outside. The Calvinists believe the Holy Spirit must first enter the person and regnerate them to have the ability to respond.

Rev 3:20 shows the picture of salvation perfectly, and it agrees with the non-Cal position.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Who is mentioned first here, Jesus or the sinner? Jesus

Where is Jesus, on the outside, or on the inside? Outside.

Who is doing the knocking? Jesus.

Jesus is not on the inside regenerating the man. He is on the outside, knocking and calling to the sinner who is inside.

Who must open the door? The sinner.

Jesus is not a criminal, he does not break your door down and enter without your permission. Oh, he wants to come in, and he makes that known. He patiently knocks and calls to you. But you have to open the door, that responsibility is your's, and your's alone.

But if you do open the door, Jesus has promised to come "in to him". Jesus will come in if you open the door. Now he is on the inside, not before.

And this shows how salvation works. The Holy Spirit calls to a man through the word of God. But a man must hear this word and believe. He must allow Jesus to come into his heart. When a man does so, then Jesus comes in. The man receives the Holy Spirit and is regenerated.

And this is specifically shown in Ephesians 1:13

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

As I have said before, Calvinism teaches exactly the opposite of what the scriptures say.

The scriptures show:

Hearing the word of God-----> Faith---------> Receiving the Spirit

Calvinism teaches:

Receiving the Spirit----------> Faith (and desire) ---------> Hearing the word of God

 

[Skandelon]

Winman, to be fair the passage about Jesus knocking at the door was actually in reference to the church, not a lost person, however I think the analogy is biblically supported elsewhere....as you correctly point out.

Calvinists try to claim that we don't give the Holy Spirit credit, but I have to ask, WHO GAVE US THE GOSPEL? Was it not the Holy Spirit? So anything that is accomplished by the gospel in the lives of man is a WORK OF THE SPIRIT. Calvinists make the mistake of not giving God credit for the outward work and thus feel the need to create some secret inward working to precede the work of the gospel in order for it to have any power. This is completely unbiblical.

 

[Winman]

Winman, to be fair the passage about Jesus knocking at the door was actually in reference to the church, not a lost person, however I think the analogy is biblically supported elsewhere....as you correctly point out.

Calvinists try to claim that we don't give the Holy Spirit credit, but I have to ask, WHO GAVE US THE GOSPEL? Was it not the Holy Spirit? So anything that is accomplished by the gospel in the lives of man is a WORK OF THE SPIRIT. Calvinists make the mistake of not giving God credit for the outward work and thus feel the need to create some secret inward working to precede the work of the gospel in order for it to have any power. This is completely unbiblical.

I do not believe Jesus is speaking only to the church. Look at verse 22 following this.

Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Do you have an ear? If so, then Jesus is speaking to you.

 

[zrs6v4]

Yes, Skandelon asks a very simple question.

Why would God have to harden and blind the unregenerate. Why? According to your doctrine, they are 100% unable to respond to God, so why would God have to further harden and blind them?

I would love to see how Calvinists answer this very simple question.

How is it then that God hardens the hearts or how do these people harden their hearts?

#1 does God come to them and blind them so they wont see?

or does

#2 God simply not give them to know and leave them in their depravity?

"To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted."

I emphasized that God gives understanding. the Holy Spirit



I dont think God has to stop them from catching on to the truth, but I do think He gives mankind over to a depraved mind.

Also to state that God somehow goes to sinners and covers their eyes shows that God is rejecting people and turning away people trying to come to Him, which opposes my view that God has His arms open, but everyone rejects God because they are sinners in rebellion. God has His arms out to everyone, but nobody comes because we are all haters of God apart from His work of grace.

Now be kind and explain my post on page 2 as I have answered your question.

 

[Winman]

Is this the question you were asking?

I think I did. Can you show a verse that says "people can believe the Gospel and radically change without the Spirit of God opening their eyes?"

If it is, it has been answered repeatedly by non-Cals like myself. You are starting to remind me of another regular poster here who insists his questions have not been answered when they have been answered dozens of times.

To answer your question, no, people cannot believe the gospel and radically change without the Spirit of God opening their eyes.

What you cannot seem to grasp is that the word of God is that Spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Do you see what Jesus said? He said his words are spirit, and they are life. Now I don't completely understand this, it is beyond our comprehension, but the word of God, the scriptures are Spirit. They really are.

But we as men have the ability to hear these words. And when we do, we have a choice. We can believe them as the truth, or we can reject them as lies. The scriptures say if you don't believe the record (the scriptures) that God gave us you have called him a liar.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Have you ever noticed how much emphasis I put on scripture? I almost always post scripture to show my views. This is because the scriptures are everything, they are vitally important.

Without the scriptures, I wouldn't know who the true God is. I might be praying to a totem pole. I might be worshipping the sun or the stars, who knows? How would I know what the truth is? My imagination would be the limit.

And this is what you see in societies that do not have the scriptures. You can go down in the jungles and find men who are praying to gods they made with their own hands from the stock of a tree, or praying to the sun, or moon, or to the local volcano.

I didn't invent the gospel. It wasn't a creation of my imagination. I was born just like you in this country, and when I was little my parents took me to church where I heard the scriptures preached. That's how I learned there was one true God. That is where I heard the name of Jesus for the first time.

So you see, God came to me through his scriptures. If not for the scriptures I would be in total ignorance of the true God and the true Saviour.

So, how can that not honor God? He gets all the credit, not me. He is sovereign.

But you are hung up believing that the unregenrate man cannot have the desire, or the ability to hear and believe God's word, when the scriptures clearly say otherwise. Do I have to post Ephesians 1:13 again? I bet I have shown that a hundred times, yet Calvinists simply ignore it.

Jesus said the dead can hear his voice, and those that will hear (speaking of the will) will live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus didn't say the living will hear his voice and live, he says the dead. But Calvinism says the exact opposite.

Jesus here confirms that the dead have the ability to hear his word, but Calvinism teaches the exact opposite.

So, no man gets saved without hearing God's word, and God's words are the Holy Spirit.

 

[zrs6v4]

If it is, it has been answered repeatedly by non-Cals like myself. You are starting to remind me of another regular poster here who insists his questions have not been answered when they have been answered dozens of times.

To answer your question, no, people cannot believe the gospel and radically change without the Spirit of God opening their eyes.

What you cannot seem to grasp is that the word of God is that Spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

Do you see what Jesus said? He said his words are spirit, and they are life. Now I don't completely understand this, it is beyond our comprehension, but the word of God, the scriptures are Spirit. They really are.

But we as men have the ability to hear these words. And when we do, we have a choice. We can believe them as the truth, or we can reject them as lies. The scriptures say if you don't believe the record (the scriptures) that God gave us you have called him a liar.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Have you ever noticed how much emphasis I put on scripture? I almost always post scripture to show my views. This is because the scriptures are everything, they are vitally important.

Without the scriptures, I wouldn't know who the true God is. I might be praying to a totem pole. I might be worshipping the sun or the stars, who knows? How would I know what the truth is? My imagination would be the limit.

And this is what you see in societies that do not have the scriptures. You can go down in the jungles and find men who are praying to gods they made with their own hands from the stock of a tree, or praying to the sun, or moon, or to the local volcano.

I didn't invent the gospel. It wasn't a creation of my imagination. I was born just like you in this country, and when I was little my parents took me to church where I heard the scriptures preached. That's how I learned there was one true God. That is where I heard the name of Jesus for the first time.

So you see, God came to me through his scriptures. If not for the scriptures I would be in total ignorance of the true God and the true Saviour.

So, how can that not honor God? He gets all the credit, not me. He is sovereign.

But you are hung up believing that the unregenrate man cannot have the desire, or the ability to hear and believe God's word, when the scriptures clearly say otherwise. Do I have to post Ephesians 1:13 again? I bet I have shown that a hundred times, yet Calvinists simply ignore it.

Jesus said the dead can hear his voice, and those that will hear (speaking of the will) will live.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Jesus didn't say the living will hear his voice and live, he says the dead. But Calvinism says the exact opposite.

Jesus here confirms that the dead have the ability to hear his word, but Calvinism teaches the exact opposite.

So, no man gets saved without hearing God's word, and God's words are the Holy Spirit.

- I think it is important to ask questions repeatedly. In fact your view is new to me.

- I totally agree with you on the fact that nobody can believe without the Spirit and the Word of God is vital as Seen in Romans 10 and 1 Peter 1.

- I do in fact strongly believe that the Word of God is made known by the Spirit of God. I do not equate the words we preach with the Spirit, but I do believe the passage means that the Spirit moves through the Gospel. I don't think that God's words are the Spirit. I think the Spirit is a person and His Words give life if it is Him speaking them. When we speak the words of God, they are powerless, but when God speaks them they can do anything He chooses.

- I totally agree on the importance of the Word as you esteem it. Your right God gave it to us that we may know Him. I agree with you on many of your points except that the Word = Holy Spirit

- You are right that I am hung up on unregenerate man responding to the Word without God working in their souls.

- Im sorry I havent been around for your quotes of Ephesians 1:13, but I do not understand why you think Calvinist's disagree with it?

- John 5:25 is talking about the spiritually dead who hear and then believe. I dont think He means that all spiritually dead people that hear the Gospel physically are taught by God. Those who are taught by God then believe. Those who aren't don't believe. I honestly do not see where Jesus is saying that the dead "can" hear. This passage says that all who hear (spiritually) live. Not everyone who hears (in flesh) the Gospel lives.

- Calvinism says that all are dead, and through the preaching of the Gospel the Spirit moves on some, and those who the Spirit moves on will live and are the ones who have ears. They have been given to know from heaven.

 

[Skandelon]

Im not sure he will be back, so Ill answer your questions hopefully

1. The ability to turn to God is there, the ability to trust Christ is there. The problem is that nobody exercises this and thus are depraved in their souls. If God did His part and just left the Word alone to us, then what is the Spirit's role (I asked this question back on page two)?

Calvinism teaches that mankind is born unable to be willing to believe and thus must be enabled.

2. Again I ask you the same question you ask, where does the Scripture say we can come to God without the Spirit?

The gospel was brought to us by the Holy Spirit. Thus, when a Holy Spirit filled man preaches the Holy Spirit wrought truth of the gospel that IS a work of the SPIRIT. God's chosen means to reach the world is the church (believers filled with the spirit) who carry the message that was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Why would anyone insist that there must be more Spiritual working than those means?

3. please go back to page 2 and respond to my post. It will help me understand where your coming from here. thanks

Sorry I missed it...I'll try to get back to it soon.

 

[Skandelon]

How is it then that God hardens the hearts or how do these people harden their hearts?

#1 does God come to them and blind them so they wont see?

or does

#2 God simply not give them to know and leave them in their depravity?

Read the first post of the thread titled "Why I left Calvinism after 10 years" and you will see my answer to this question. There is a process of becoming calloused over a period of time after continual rebellion. AND there are times in biblical history where God actively steps in and blinds men in that rebellious state so as to accomplish a greater purpose through them. (read the post and I give more details)

 

[Skandelon]

The Gospel is the power unto salvation, but not just words. People can believe, but wont believe in the way that saves them. Just look at the church, people are dead and blind without God making it possible. Christ, The Father, The Spirit all are One in that He alone can give life.

Ps. 14 Nobody seeks God.

Doesn't prove anything about ones ability to respond to Him when He seeks us...which he does through the means of the gospel being preached.

John 3:3 unless born again you cant see the Kingdom or enter it

We all believe that one must be born again to enter the Kingdom. Why did you quote this verse?

John 6:44 Nobody comes to God unless drawn

John 12 says when Christ is raised up he will draw all men to himself. In John 6 Jesus is speaking to a Jewish audience. Why is that significant? Because the Jews as a nation were being judicially hardened. Jesus had only selected a remnant of Jews to be in his inner circle and the rest were being hardened. Only after he had been crucified and raise up would he send them with the Holy Spirit power to preach the gospel to all the world.

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words I have spoken to you are spirit and life
John 6:64 This is why He said that you must be drawn by the Father

This passage actually seems to support my point that the gospel truth is a work of the spirit and has the ability to bring life. The words of truth draw people to him. Why else would he need to speak in parables to keep them from believing? They wouldn't have crucified him if they all believed.

John 6:37-40 all the Father gives are delivered and upheld by the power of God from beginning to end.
1 Peter 1:23-25 We are born again "through" the word preached to us

Again, these passages seem to support what I've been saying. We are born again through the words....why again do you call them "mere words?" Why have you quoted these? How do you see them answering the question I asked?

So with that said I believe that you are right that the Gospel is the power and the only way someone can be saved. Now I do not think mere words alone are enough to lead someone to totally cry out to God for mercy with their lives, desiring to come to God forever to serve and worship Him.

Oh, you think the inspired words of God are "mere words?" Hmmmmm Interesting. Do I really need to list all the passages that contradict you or can you explain yourself better?

If it were just the words that people responded to, what do you think God's role in this is?

Yeah, you may be right. God didn't do enough by sending the prophets, revealing himself through out all of human history with such epic events as the Exodus and the taking of the Promised Land, followed by his sending his own Son to earth as a man to die a cruel death on a Roman cross while taking the time to call out and disciple twelve men to be the foundation for his church and sent the Holy Spirit to inspire them to write the scripture we have today and indwell all those who come to faith in Him....yeah that's probably not a big enough role. Let's also say that he makes some people believe it and passes by everyone else never even giving them the ability to willingly trust in Him. Sorry, I can't help but be a little sarcastic, I mean, come on... God HAS DONE A LOT even without the so called irresistible grace (or effectual calling) your system insists upon.

Can ANY Calvinists provide scripture that says man cannot believe the Holy Spirit wrought truth of the gospel message?
I think I did.

I don't think so.

Can you show a verse that says "people can believe the Gospel and radically change without the Spirit of God opening their eyes?"

Ability is implied in the command and expectation to believe (as Calvinistic scholars even acknowledge). Thus it's incumbent upon you to show otherwise. However, since you asked I can provide several passages that indicate our ability in this regard. I will pick just one for the sake of simplicity:

Acts 28:24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

This passage, which is quoted from the OT several times in the NT, explains that the Jews hearts had GROWN calloused. THEY WEREN'T BORN CALLOUSED. It also clearly explains their ability had they not become hard. "OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE." He even goes on to contrast the Gentiles who "WILL LISTEN."

So, not only do you need to deal with the implications of the passages such as John 3:16 that calls whosoever to come/believe but you must deal with the explicit passages such as this that clearly shows mans ability from birth to see, hear, understand and turn to God for healing.

 

[zrs6v4]

The gospel was brought to us by the Holy Spirit. Thus, when a Holy Spirit filled man preaches the Holy Spirit wrought truth of the gospel that IS a work of the SPIRIT. God's chosen means to reach the world is the church (believers filled with the spirit) who carry the message that was inspired by the Holy Spirit. Why would anyone insist that there must be more Spiritual working than those means?

There must be because people are not only unaware, but blind, dead, and sinners at the heart. They need the Spirit to work in them, no question.

I see this process in Scripture
- God sends the messenger
- the messenger preaches the Word (planting)(watering)
- The Holy Spirit works in the heart of the hearer (brings increase)
- The person sees, believes, and is justified

 

[zrs6v4]

Doesn't prove anything about ones ability to respond to Him when He seeks us...which he does through the means of the gospel being preached.

I think it does, because if He just seeks us and preaches to a dead person without working in their hearts and awakening them to truth, then the flesh is left alone to make a wise decision, which it cannot and will not.

We all believe that one must be born again to enter the Kingdom. Why did you quote this verse?

I would say the key is that nobody can see the kingdom of God without being born again. They are spiritually blind and dont understand anything about it. It doesnt make someone spiritually alive just preaching to them, but it requires a resurrection of the soul.

John 12 says when Christ is raised up he will draw all men to himself. In John 6 Jesus is speaking to a Jewish audience. Why is that significant? Because the Jews as a nation were being judicially hardened. Jesus had only selected a remnant of Jews to be in his inner circle and the rest were being hardened. Only after he had been crucified and raise up would he send them with the Holy Spirit power to preach the gospel to all the world.

Do you think the context of "all" in John 12 is every person who ever lived? If this is so and Jesus raises everyone who the Father draws, then this would mean that everyone will be saved. it must be granted to people to come to the Son, and not everyone is granted in this saving way.

This passage actually seems to support my point that the gospel truth is a work of the spirit and has the ability to bring life. The words of truth draw people to him. Why else would he need to speak in parables to keep them from believing? They wouldn't have crucified him if they all believed.

As I said before, Jesus doesnt mean His verbal words give life. But through the words of the Holy Spirit the life giving power, people get life.

Again, these passages seem to support what I've been saying. We are born again through the words....why again do you call them "mere words?" Why have you quoted these? How do you see them answering the question I asked?

The words didnt save us, but through them the Spirit gave life. I call them mere words because words are powerless, it it what and who they reflect and whose words they are that matter. Words without the Spirit are just Words. I am not taking away from the authority and inspiration of God's word. To unborn people they are and will remain words unless they are given eyes and ears.

Oh, you think the inspired words of God are "mere words?" Hmmmmm Interesting. Do I really need to list all the passages that contradict you or can you explain yourself better?

Thats not what I was saying. The Spirit is the power of the Words. many people speak these words and nothing happens, but when the Spirit speaks then stuff happens.

Yeah, you may be right. God didn't do enough by sending the prophets, revealing himself through out all of human history with such epic events as the Exodus and the taking of the Promised Land, followed by his sending his own Son to earth as a man to die a cruel death on a Roman cross while taking the time to call out and disciple twelve men to be the foundation for his church and sent the Holy Spirit to inspire them to write the scripture we have today and indwell all those who come to faith in Him....yeah that's probably not a big enough role. Let's also say that he makes some people believe it and passes by everyone else never even giving them the ability to willingly trust in Him. Sorry, I can't help but be a little sarcastic, I mean, come on... God HAS DONE A LOT even without the so called irresistible grace (or effectual calling) your system insists upon.

Again I am not saying that all He did was not worth anything, because it is all vital and special in many ways. Please don't make these assumptions anymore without asking questions. I meant that His role is not to just leave what He started up to people. God continues to work by the Spirit today through all of His work He began and is completing. You have answered that question in your last few posts. I think part of the Spirit's role that is an absolute must, is to convict hearts, regenerate, and do all sorts of things that sovereignly work His will.
So you think the Spirit of God has no part of a man hearing the Word and choosing to believe until the man in his own strength decides to trust in God?

Acts 28:24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' 28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

This passage, which is quoted from the OT several times in the NT, explains that the Jews hearts had GROWN calloused. THEY WEREN'T BORN CALLOUSED. It also clearly explains their ability had they not become hard. "OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE." He even goes on to contrast the Gentiles who "WILL LISTEN."

So, not only do you need to deal with the implications of the passages such as John 3:16 that calls whosoever to come/believe but you must deal with the explicit passages such as this that clearly shows mans ability from birth to see, hear, understand and turn to God for healing.

The Gospel is offered to everyone to come and believe. I never said the offer isnt to all although I dont think everyone hears the Gospel before they die.

You are right in saying that the Jews grew more calloused. I dont think it is that people are born calloused, but that they are born ready to begin to be more and more calloused. I think I see your logic here, and it is worthy of a deeper look, but I dont think it explains much besides the human side of rejection.

 

[Skandelon]

Ok, there is a lot to address but I'm tired so I'll focus on one point. We both keep saying the spirit must work. I believe the spirit worked in bringing us the inspired words and thus the truth of those words has power and is sufficient to lead someone to salvation. You believe that the Gospel alone in insufficient to save and thus the Holy Spirit must regenerate a man in order for the gospel to have any effect. At least we both have one thing in common...we both believe the spirit plays a role. So, another question we can ask is this, "Can man resist the Holy Spirit?" If so, then Calvinism is wrong...
Acts 7:51 NIV "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Can God desire to save a person and that person be unwilling to come to him? If so, then Calvinism is wrong.
Matthew 23:37 NIV"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

So, in conclusion, we both agree that the Spirit must work, but you need to prove that His work is irresistible.

 

[Skandelon]

There must be because people are not only unaware, but blind, dead, and sinners at the heart. They need the Spirit to work in them, no question.

I see this process in Scripture
- God sends the messenger
- the messenger preaches the Word (planting)(watering)
- The Holy Spirit works in the heart of the hearer (brings increase)
- The person sees, believes, and is justified

So in your version of the bible when you turn to Romans 10 Paul actually says, "... for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can the heart really believe it unless the Holy Spirit regenerates? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent?

 

[pinoybaptist]

..........
I mean, it just takes a brief overview of history to see that Arminianism, the movement that made Calvinism and the TULIP popular in the first place, was a bunch of former Calvinists who began to question and turn from these teachings.

You don't need an overview of secular history to find that, skan. just look at the Bible, and see how many of those who seemed to follow Jesus everywhere had a point where they cannot swallow His teachings and turn away ?
what did Paul meant about Alexander the coppersmith doing him much harm ?
humanism always comes up in opposition to anything that debases man and upholds the sovereignty of God in all things, humanists will always defend the integrity of man when confronted with the holiness of God, and that's exactly the corner you and winman and all those who oppose the Sovereign right of God to choose whom He wants and quicken whom He favors - the corner of humanism - and I will say to you: get out of there.

It has been happening for generations Pinoybaptist, get used to it. People who read and understand the context of scripture will begin to question unbiblical teachings, period.

And the Jews read and said they understood Scripture, and look what they did to Jesus. They vilified Him, and finally crucified Him.


I've got you exactly where I wanted you, and I don't feel any elation, just sadness, , and that is admitting that to you, putting God above all else, including man, is not Scriptural. You have violated, in print, the 1st Commandment: I am the Lord, thy God, thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Giving honor and respect to fellow men, especially those who name the Name of Christ, is different to exalting man to any level near God. He stays at the foot of Christ, until the Lord Himself exalts him.


N.B.

- Put not forth thyself in the presence of the king, and stand not in the place of great men: For better it is that it be said unto thee, Come up hither; than that thou shouldest be put lower in the presence of the prince whom thine eyes have seen . Proverbs 25:6-7

 

[Robert Snow]

Oh, so you, like Skandelon, were once a Reformed something ?
yeah, right.
and I lived during the time of Billy the Kid.

If you are going to call another poster a liar, have the guts to do it openly.

This is one of the greatest errors of being a Calvinist, arrogance, which you just proved!

 

[David Michael Harris]

Chill all, it's Christmas.