Must a gift be effectually given for the giver to receive the credit?

[Skandelon]

In my discussions I, as a non-Calvinists, am constantly being accused of not giving God full credit and glory for our salvation. But, is this a fair attack on Arminian theology? Consider this with me:

Must a gift be given in an irresistible manner for the giver to receive full credit for the gift? Salvation is GIVEN by God, in both doctrinal systems. It's given effectually in Calvinism and can be resisted in Arminianism. Because some are able to resist the gift doesn't reduce the gift or the credit to the giver, does it?

Let's look at a simple analogy: Suppose I had some tickets to the superbowl and offered them to some of my friends. One turned a ticket down while the others accepted, so I found another friend to take the last ticket. Is the value of the ticket lessened because one person refused it? Are the friends less pleased with the gift or the giver because the one friend refused it? Of course not.

One could even argue, as I am now, that even MORE CREDIT/GLORY is given to the giver when that giver allows someone the freedom to willingly accept or refuse the gift. Why? First of all because the gift is GENUINELY offered to more people and regardless of their response the offer is a display of love...which in turn shows more of the givers goodness. Not to mention, that the giver's culpability is not in question; as it would be in a system where the giver is ultimately "responsible" for the response of the recipient.*

In short, I believe Arminianism gives God more glory in salvation than does Calvinism.

What say you?

 

[annsni]

I say "one track mind much"? Do you think about the C/A argument all day long? I say it's time to get another hobby. Seriously.

 

[zrs6v4]

we should give God glory for life, food, clothing, house, good looks (at least I thank him for that ), every hair on our head (at least some), His power, glory, etc, along with the sovereign scope over our lives in that He let us fall to a certain degree (according to His good plan), aided us with Gospel, taught us the Gospel, changed our heart through the Gospel, gave us our measure of faith, gifts, love, and everything about us. So I dont think there is anything good that I have that didnt generate first from God and His plan, so He should receive all the glory.

I think the point is that if we take any credit for anything at all without God blessing us first then we can say that we did something good without God's help. This would be receiving glory and God not getting it. I personally feel better about giving God every ounce of glory since He in some way is sovereign over all things from greatest to least.

I'm not pointing any fingers or saying that this is all we can know about giving God glory, but this is a couple of short statements on where Im at with it.

you?

 

[Skandelon]

I say "one track mind much"? Do you think about the C/A argument all day long? I say it's time to get another hobby. Seriously.

First, I have an average of 0.6 posts a day here while you average over 5 posts a day...and you have over 6K posts to my 1K...now who needs a new hobby? :laugh:

Secondly, because this topic happens to be what I'm interested in here on this forum, in no way represents the balance of my life. This is ONLY place in my life as a pastor, father of 4, husband and Christ follower that I am currently discussing this topic. Just because the totality of your life is expressed in all the differing topics of your posts doesn't mean you are somehow more balanced in your life than I am.

However, I guess I could see how one might come to that conclusion based upon just the last few days of only knowing me through this forum. I get this accusation because when I run into a new issue on one thread I'd rather start a new thread then just hijack others. Regardless, this is not the topic of the post and I would appreciate us staying on that topic. I'm working through some issues and enjoy the sharpening on this topic...if you don't mind. :wavey:

 

[Winman]

How is obeying God's command to come to Christ a bad thing? We are doing exactly what God commanded us to do.

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

I wrote this as a sarcasm once, but from the Calvinist mindset it is true.

Jesus- Come unto me.

Sinner- Here I am Lord, please forgive me of my sins and give me everlasting life.

Jesus- I can't.

Sinner- Why?

Jesus- You came to me.

Sinner- But you said "come unto me".

Jesus- Nevertheless, you came to me and now you will take credit for saving yourself.

Sinner- But I did exactly what you commanded me to do.

Jesus- Doesn't matter, you came to me and now you will take credit for saving yourself.

Sinner- Lord, I won't take credit, I know only you have the power to save a man, I cannot save myself and I know that.

Jesus- Sorry.


This is how silly Calvinism is. It teaches that obeying Christ and doing exactly what he commanded all men to do is evil. It steals God's sovereignty. This is completely absurd.

 

[annsni]

How is obeying God's command to come to Christ a bad thing? We are doing exactly what God commanded us to do.

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

I wrote this as a sarcasm once, but from the Calvinist mindset it is true.

Jesus- Come unto me.

Sinner- Here I am Lord, please forgive me of my sins and give me everlasting life.

Jesus- I can't.

Sinner- Why?

Jesus- You came to me.

Sinner- But you said "come unto me".

Jesus- Nevertheless, you came to me and now you will take credit for saving yourself.

Sinner- But I did exactly what you commanded me to do.

Jesus- Doesn't matter, you came to me and now you will take credit for saving yourself.

Sinner- Lord, I won't take credit, I know only you have the power to save a man, I cannot save myself and I know that.

Jesus- Sorry.


This is how silly Calvinism is. It teaches that obeying Christ and doing exactly what he commanded all men to do is evil. It steals God's sovereignty. This is completely absurd.

That's how silly an Arminian's view of Calvinism is because it's false.

There are none in the history of this world who ever desired to be saved who were not. Ever.

 

[webdog]

That's how silly an Arminian's view of Calvinism is because it's false.

There are none in the history of this world who ever desired to be saved who were not. Ever.

I disagree, and I think Scripture does as well...

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

They desire salvation...but they desire it doing it their way (works). The desire to live forever has been placed in all men (Ecc. 3:11). The fact He has given us a conscience, revealed Himself through creation and put each person who ever lived in the exact perfect location and place in time to seek Him (Acts 17:26) is testimony enough He has placed the desire to be saved in each person.

 

[Winman]

That's how silly an Arminian's view of Calvinism is because it's false.

There are none in the history of this world who ever desired to be saved who were not. Ever.

Yes, but according to you a man can only desire to be saved if God regenerates him to have this desire.

Doesn't that make God completely responsible for the deaths of billions of people? Couldn't God easily regenerate all men to have this desire?

It makes God demand what is utterly unreasonable from a man. God commands men to come to him knowing it is absolutely impossible because he has willed it so.

God tells men he loves all men when he has already decided he is going to throw most of them in the lake of fire for eternity.

God uses misleading language like "whosoever will may take the water of life freely" and "not willing that any should perish", when God does not mean that at all. He means only a few elect. Oh, God could have said a few elect, then there would be no confusion, but chose to use misleading language instead.

I find it amazing any thinking person can conceive of God like this.

 

[annsni]

First, I have an average of 0.6 posts a day here while you average over 5 posts a day...and you have over 6K posts to my 1K...now who needs a new hobby? :laugh:

Secondly, because this topic happens to be what I'm interested in here on this forum, in no way represents the balance of my life. This is ONLY place in my life as a pastor, father of 4, husband and Christ follower that I am currently discussing this topic. Just because the totality of your life is expressed in all the differing topics of your posts doesn't mean you are somehow more balanced in your life than I am.

However, I guess I could see how one might come to that conclusion based upon just the last few days of only knowing me through this forum. I get this accusation because when I run into a new issue on one thread I'd rather start a new thread then just hijack others. Regardless, this is not the topic of the post and I would appreciate us staying on that topic. I'm working through some issues and enjoy the sharpening on this topic...if you don't mind. :wavey:

I looked at your profile and all of the posts you started. Short of a few political posts, every single post you have started here has been on the C/A argument. That indicates an obsession to me.

 

[annsni]

I disagree, and I think Scripture does as well...

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

They desire salvation...but they desire it doing it their way (works). The desire to live forever has been placed in all men (Ecc. 3:11). The fact He has given us a conscience, revealed Himself through creation and put each person who ever lived in the exact perfect location and place in time to seek Him (Acts 17:26) is testimony enough He has placed the desire to be saved in each person.

Scripture is clear. If one believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he will be saved. Period. End of story. That's outside of the C/A argument. Those who Jesus spoke of in Matthew 7 did not believe on Jesus Christ. They tried to do good for Him but didn't believe on Him apparently. Don't you know many "religious" who would fit this profile?

But let's see what the Scripture truth is: believe=saved.

Mark 16:16 "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. "

Acts 16:31 "And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 10:9 "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

 

[Skandelon]

I looked at your profile and all of the posts you started. Short of a few political posts, every single post you have started here has been on the C/A argument. That indicates an obsession to me.

If this board was where I expressed every part of my life, as it appears to be with you, Miss 6,772 posts since 2006, then you might have a point. And you called me obsessed? :laugh:

 

[annsni]

Yes, but according to you a man can only desire to be saved if God regenerates him to have this desire.

Doesn't that make God completely responsible for the deaths of billions of people? Couldn't God easily regenerate all men to have this desire?

It makes God demand what is utterly unreasonable from a man. God commands men to come to him knowing it is absolutely impossible because he has willed it so.

God tells men he loves all men when he has already decided he is going to throw most of them in the lake of fire for eternity.

God uses misleading language like "whosoever will may take the water of life freely" and "not willing that any should perish", when God does not mean that at all. He means only a few elect. Oh, God could have said a few elect, then there would be no confusion, but chose to use misleading language instead.

I find it amazing any thinking person can conceive of God like this.

Romans 9 speaks to this:

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"
26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

27And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel[c] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." 29And as Isaiah predicted,

"If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah."

Israel’s Unbelief

30What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness[d] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33as it is written,

"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."

 

[Skandelon]

I disagree, and I think Scripture does as well...

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

They desire salvation...but they desire it doing it their way (works). The desire to live forever has been placed in all men (Ecc. 3:11). The fact He has given us a conscience, revealed Himself through creation and put each person who ever lived in the exact perfect location and place in time to seek Him (Acts 17:26) is testimony enough He has placed the desire to be saved in each person.

Good point. I never had thought of that before. :thumbs:

It's not just believing that Christ is who he says He is, its a willingness to follow Him. Many believe and even express a desire to follow him (Rich Young Ruler), but they didn't. Can you all explain that?

 

[zrs6v4]

Good point. I never had thought of that before. :thumbs:

It's not just believing that Christ is who he says He is, its a willingness to follow Him. Many believe and even express a desire to follow him (Rich Young Ruler), but they didn't. Can you all explain that?

Yea you always give into your greatest desire even if your mind tricks you. You may think and say your greatest desire is to serve God and not go committ murder, but if you commit murder and choose that over God your actions spoke for your words. Now for the rich young ruler may have appeared to want Christ for the gain that he might have received, but when Christ told him to sell all of his things and follow him it revealed the greatest object of his affection was... not Christ.. If our greatest desire is to honor the Lord, then our actions ought to scream over our words.

 

[zrs6v4]

That's how silly an Arminian's view of Calvinism is because it's false.

There are none in the history of this world who ever desired to be saved who were not. Ever.

Agreed. If their desires would have truly been from the heart (mind, will, and emotions) then they would have came to Christ for mercy. People come all the time to church to want to be saved or because they need help, but this doesn't always indicate a true hate for sin, fear of the Lord, and desire for God's will above all things including their own family. I really believe they need the Spirit for that kind of repentance.

 

[zrs6v4]

I disagree, and I think Scripture does as well...

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

They desire salvation...but they desire it doing it their way (works). The desire to live forever has been placed in all men (Ecc. 3:11). The fact He has given us a conscience, revealed Himself through creation and put each person who ever lived in the exact perfect location and place in time to seek Him (Acts 17:26) is testimony enough He has placed the desire to be saved in each person.

As I have stated, they deceived themselves and their faith was vain. This is a scary thought and Paul had it for 20 years after conversion. Doing good works does not in any way indicate a true heart for God and a true love. Not even close. I dont know of anyone who doesn't desire to be saved. The problem is that people dont have a changed heart and saving faith because the reason they want to be saved is for the benefits. They want to be saved and not serve God, when true repentance is seeing sin, hating it, denying self and desiring to fall on Jesus feet for forgiveness and not only that but for love, fear, honor, and many spiritual reasons. I am not saying you must do this or do that to be saved, but I am saying the fruit of a true godly heart will result in repentance, faith, and Lordship. They missed the mark, and there will be many who will as well. This is a fearful thing and is sad. You are not letting the deceit and wickedness of man's heart play in affect with the hearts desires, which I would say is an error. Whether we are speaking or regeneration or some kind of miraculous work of the Spirit, I am certain for someone to have true saving faith that has right motives, they need something that in and of themselves they cannot produce.

 

[Jerome]

In Arthur Pink's Sovereignty of God, tucked at the end of the paragraph containing the following

The fact is, that the love of God, is a truth for the saints only, and to present it to the enemies of God is to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs. With the exception of John 3:16, not once in the four Gospels do we read of the Lord Jesus—the Perfect Teacher—telling sinners that God loved them!

is a relevant footnote:

*Concerning the rich young ruler of whom it is said Christ "loved him" (Mark 10:21), we fully believe that he was "saved" sometime after his interview with our Lord.

:laugh:

 

[webdog]

As I have stated, they deceived themselves and their faith was vain. This is a scary thought and Paul had it for 20 years after conversion. Doing good works does not in any way indicate a true heart for God and a true love. Not even close. I dont know of anyone who doesn't desire to be saved. The problem is that people dont have a changed heart and saving faith because the reason they want to be saved is for the benefits. They want to be saved and not serve God, when true repentance is seeing sin, hating it, denying self and desiring to fall on Jesus feet for forgiveness and not only that but for love, fear, honor, and many spiritual reasons. I am not saying you must do this or do that to be saved, but I am saying the fruit of a true godly heart will result in repentance, faith, and Lordship. They missed the mark, and there will be many who will as well. This is a fearful thing and is sad. You are not letting the deceit and wickedness of man's heart play in affect with the hearts desires, which I would say is an error. Whether we are speaking or regeneration or some kind of miraculous work of the Spirit, I am certain for someone to have true saving faith that has right motives, they need something that in and of themselves they cannot produce.

Men were created to want to live forever. They know there is more to life, and that physical death is not normal. This is a truth instilled in man from God...so it is a real desire for salvation. Now, man apart from God intervening in man first would never desire it, but it is so painfully clear through the whole of Scripture God has given men everything they need to come to him. They truly desire salvation...they just fall for the same deception Adam and Eve fell for...that they can do it and be like God apart from obeying Him. This is the reason there are so many "gods" and false religions out there...man is looking for the answers, but they want a god they can fashion in their image like the Israelites did.

 

[zrs6v4]

Men were created to want to live forever. They know there is more to life, and that physical death is not normal. This is a truth instilled in man from God...so it is a real desire for salvation. Now, man apart from God intervening in man first would never desire it, but it is so painfully clear through the whole of Scripture God has given men everything they need to come to him. They truly desire salvation...they just fall for the same deception Adam and Eve fell for...that they can do it and be like God apart from obeying Him. This is the reason there are so many "gods" and false religions out there...man is looking for the answers, but they want a god they can fashion in their image like the Israelites did.

-I have no doubt that men want to live forever, because that is a benefit.
-I would agree that men have a sense of God
-They do desire to be saved, but they highly rebel against the way of salvation because that is totally against their autonomous nature (generally speaking) to desire God's ways and Christ which is salvation.
-The issue doesn't lie with a true desire for salvation, but a true desire for God who is salvation. You can't enter another way. as you stated man is idolatrous at heart and just can't keep the first command rightly to save his life.

 

[kyredneck]

That's how silly an Arminian's view of Calvinism is because it's false.

There are none in the history of this world who ever desired to be saved who were not. Ever.

Amen! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: