Man's nature

[DHK]

We are totally depraved, until the words of Jesus come which is Spirit and life.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that we are depraved but not totally, or at least not as totally depraved as Calvinism teaches.

 

[psalms109:31]

Death

I can see why the Calvinist can see that we are totally depraved, but I also see the only way out of that nature is Jesus. The words of Jesus is more powerful than our nature and we can do what Jesus ask of us and the path that leads to righteousness is only opened to us through His word that is Spirit or life or we can continue to the path that leads to death. The words of Jesus is the only life we have, if we walk away from it we have no life.

 

[psalms109:31]

Death

I can see why the Calvinist can see that we are totally depraved, but I also see the only way out of that nature is Jesus. The words of Jesus is more powerful than our nature and we can do what Jesus ask of us and the path that leads to righteousness is only opened to us through His word that is Spirit or life or we can continue to the path that leads to death. The words of Jesus is the only life we have, if we walk away from it we have no life.

 

[Grasshopper]

Need I remind you, Matthew Henry was a Calvinist. But he believed this passage spoke of unbelieving Gentiles.

And what Matthew Henry said here is easily observable.

My My My, how ones story changes from thread to thread.


"I have owned one commentary in my life, Matthew Henry, and that was given me as a gift. I almost never read it, and do not even know what happened to it, I haven't seen it in nearly 15 years. It may be around the house somewhere, but I don't know where."

 

[kyredneck]

Would you agree then that Cornelius believed in God long before he received the Holy Spirit?

Yes, most likely he was a proselyte, and he was devout just as those devout Jews from every nation that God had collected together to hear the gospel on the day of Pentecost. But he and those Jews were devout PRIOR to hearing and believing the gospel. The baptism of the Spirit in Acts 2 & 10 is NOT the same as the work of the Spirit in regeneration [Jn 3:8]

You can go to Muslim countries who hate Christ. Do they have moral laws? So are Muslims regenerated?

'The foundation of God standeth sure, The Lord knoweth them that are His.' It's not for me to decide what individuals may or may not belong to Him.

Elect according to foreknowledge. Why did he send Peter to Cornelius? Because he knew Cornelius would believe the gospel.

That is such a weak, watered down attempt that you Arminians persist in to deprive the right of the potter over the clay. God foreknows what's going to come up in His garden because He planted the seeds. Period. It's just that simple.

Ah, so you don't believe the gospel saves?

Absolutely, the Gospel saves His redeemed, regenerated children.

And this is the error of Calvinism. In Calvinism it is not the gospel that saves, it is regeneration. But the scriptures say it is the gospel itself that is the "power of God" unto every one that believeth. And notice this power follows belief.

And this is the error of Arminianism, they fail to recognize the total depravity, i.e. the absolute helplessness, the total incapacitation, of unregenerate man to approach God. Consider these totally depraved sinners:

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.
27 My sheep hear my voice.... Jn 10

Note, Christ did not say, ye are not of my sheep, because ye believe not; He said , ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me:.....
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil..........
47 He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. Jn 8

Again take note of the order, they were not of God, not because they wouldn't hear Him; they couldn't hear Him because they were not of God.

It's really just that simple. Belief on Jesus Christ is the greatest evidence of the work of the Spirit in one's heart.

This is what I have been saying for a long time, Calvinism makes regeneration primary in salvation and places the gospel second.

Well, uh, duh, yeah. First things first. As I said, belief is evidence of eternal life, not the cause of it:

He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life;......Jn 3:36

.....He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life,...Jn5:24

... He that believeth hath eternal life. Jn 6:47

It shows that life precedes belief. If you were to persuade one to believe on Christ, well, the Spirit's already been there and made that person alive so that they could believe. Note, it doesn't say he that believes will get eternal life; it says he that believes has it already.

 

[kyredneck]

My My My, how ones story changes from thread to thread.


"I have owned one commentary in my life, Matthew Henry, and that was given me as a gift. I almost never read it, and do not even know what happened to it, I haven't seen it in nearly 15 years. It may be around the house somewhere, but I don't know where."

Yes, I'm beginning to see the same thing. As you aptly pointed out on another thread:

......Interesting, you have insisted you never read their works:

"I have owned one commentary in my life, Matthew Henry, and that was given me as a gift. I almost never read it, and do not even know what happened to it, I haven't seen it in nearly 15 years."

Now you seem to be quite familiar with their works. Perhaps you haven't quite been truthful with me.......

[ http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63301&page=10 ]

Methinks Winman may not be not totally truthful in a lot of his posts and may go to great lengths in his obsessive, relentless campaign to discredit the doctrines of God's Sovereign Grace and malign those that believe in those precious truths. It is obvious that it is his primary if not sole objective here on the BB.

Winman seems to be famliar with the writings of Calvin now.

 

[grahame]

If I have understood the Calvinistic approach correctly. Total depravity does not mean that man is totally unable to do good. It means that he is totally unable to choose Christ and to believe on him to saving grace. That is all it means. Calvin was fully aware that man can choose to do good works and to love others and even sacrifice one's self for the good of others. But not to a saving faith in Christ. Man cannot believe on Christ except by grace. "For by grace are ye saved and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Our good works are only acceptable if we are in Christ. If an unbeliever does good works they will not benefit him pne iota towards salvation.
God commanded us to love our neighbours as ourselves. Why should he congratulate us if we do as he commanded?

 

[kyredneck]

If I have understood the Calvinistic approach correctly. Total depravity does not mean that man is totally unable to do good. It means that he is totally unable to choose Christ and to believe on him to saving grace. That is all it means......

Thank you very much. You are zactly correct. Excellent post.

 

[Amy.G]

Total depravity does not mean that man is totally unable to do good. It means that he is totally unable to choose Christ and to believe on him to saving grace. That is all it means. Calvin was fully aware that man can choose to do good works and to love others and even sacrifice one's self for the good of others. But not to a saving faith in Christ.

If man is able to do good, love others even to the sacrificing of himself, why is he not able to choose Christ? He obviously knows right from wrong and chooses to do right at least some of the time. Yet Cal's say he is not able to do right when it comes to faith in Christ. That doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

If man is able to do good, love others even to the sacrificing of himself, why is he not able to choose Christ? He obviously knows right from wrong and chooses to do right at least some of the time. Yet Cal's say he is not able to do right when it comes to faith in Christ. That doesn't make any sense to me.

It's John 6:44. Jesus is the one who said no one can come to Him. We both agree with Jesus on that.

 

[Amy.G]

It's John 6:44. Jesus is the one who said no one can come to Him. We both agree with Jesus on that.

Jesus did not say that "no one" can come to Him. He said that the ones who come to Him were drawn by the Father. The question is who is drawn by the Father? Verse 45 tells us.

Jesus said:

Joh*6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.''


Jesus was speaking to Jews who had the Prophets and scripture, which was the teaching of God. Therefore, those that heard and learned would have known that Jesus was who He said He was and they would have come to Him.

Calvinists want to use these verses to make salvation exclusive to a certain group of people, but Christ says every man who has learned of the Father is drawn to Christ, because the Prophets and scripture point the way.

Jesus says elsewhere:

Joh*5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh*5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

There it is right there. Some of the Jews did not "learn from the Father", and therefore did not believe Jesus. The drawing of the Father is the light that He gave the Jews through the Prophets.

 

[grahame]

If man is able to do good, love others even to the sacrificing of himself, why is he not able to choose Christ? He obviously knows right from wrong and chooses to do right at least some of the time. Yet Cal's say he is not able to do right when it comes to faith in Christ. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Well I'm only going on what Christ said himself in John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him

The problem comes when we begin to philosophise about these things. I know within myself if it were not for the Holy Spirit then I would not have come to Christ. If you think that is hard to hear then read this,

And he said , Go , and tell this people, Hear ye indeed , but understand not; and see ye indeed , but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat , and make their ears heavy , and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert , and be healed.

(Isaiah 6:9) The longer I am a Christian the more I see that my salvation is all of grace and nothing of me.

 

[webdog]

Anything that does not come from faith is sin. So even "good" in this world is sinful if it does not come from faith. Of course there are many out there who are "good" and religious. My friend's dad is a staunch Catholic (and I mean STAUNCH) and he's always doing great things. He walks around all the time with this giant crucifix on his neck and serves God all the time with his ministry in the church and to his congregants. But his theology is quite wrong - enough so that I can mostly say that this man is most likely not saved. But he does everything "religiously" right.

I think that is a misapplication of that Scripture and leads to that kind of circular reasoning. Sin is the violation of God's law...not a reprobate person brushing their teeth

 

[annsni]

I think that is a misapplication of that Scripture and leads to that kind of circular reasoning. Sin is the violation of God's law...not a reprobate person brushing their teeth

Or maybe it's both.

 

[webdog]

Or maybe it's both.

I'll stick with the context of Paul's statement having to do with having doubts about what was lawful to be consumed, and being undecided on whether it is sin or not, does it anyway

 

[annsni]

I'll stick with the context of Paul's statement having to do with having doubts about what was lawful to be consumed, and being undecided on whether it is sin or not, does it anyway

That's fine. But I think the whole of Scripture shows man is not good.

 

[psalms109:31]

Whole passage

John 6:43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[Isaiah 54:13 ] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

We need to see the whole passage to see the truth. It is the one's who listen and learn from the Father that He draws.

He draws us through the words of Jesus which is Spirit and life, and is not His own but the Fathers who sent Jesus.

Following the crowd is not one who is drawn by the Father it is those who listen and learn from Him that the Father draws. Without the words of Jesus you cannot be drawn to Jesus. PERIOD

 

[webdog]

That's fine. But I think the whole of Scripture shows man is not good.

True, but even Jesus said these same people can do good...not to gain righteousness, but good nonetheless (Matt. 7:9-11, Luke 11:11-13)

 

[grahame]

When I was a young Christian I struggled for a long time with the doctrines of grace alone. One way my friend was reading the Bible in the workshop and suddenly he gave me the Bible and said, "Read that for me". It was a verse from the Acts of the Apostles chapter 13 and verse 48. So I read

And when the Gentiles heard this , they were glad , and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

It was that verse that finally convinced me that our salvation is entirely of the grace of God from the beginning to the end.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Amy,

Jesus did not say that "no one" can come to Him. He said that the ones who come to Him were drawn by the Father.

Well, I will leave it up to the reader to decide, and us individually, what Jesus actually said based on John 6:44 Jesus said,

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

To me it is very simple and straightforward. No man can come to Jesus, except...so the point is established...no man can come to Jesus. This speaks directly to ability...

The only valid objection/response in my opinion is that we could possibly be misunderstanding His words based on context...which can also be looked at.

The question is who is drawn by the Father? Verse 45 tells us.

Jesus said:

Joh*6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.''

I would respond, that another or a question is "Who then is drawn by the Father?" Which is a perfectly valid question. And I agree Amy, verse 45 here answers it...every man (person) that has heard and learnd from God the Father comes to Jesus.

Jesus was speaking to Jews who had the Prophets and scripture, which was the teaching of God. Therefore, those that heard and learned would have known that Jesus was who He said He was and they would have come to Him.

If this is the case Amy, then why didn't all Jews come to Jesus? The reason for the question is because Jesus said those who have learned from God the Father come to Him. There is no maybe or ambiguity in His words on that. If they have learned from God the Father, then they come to Jesus.

I am more inclinded to believe that what Jesus told Peter in Matt 16:17 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Calvinists want to use these verses to make salvation exclusive to a certain group of people, but Christ says every man who has learned of the Father is drawn to Christ, because the Prophets and scripture point the way.

Jesus did not say that every man learns of the Father because of the Prophets and Scriptures point the way. What He did was was that no man CAN come to Him except those who are taught by His Father. Then He shared with them a Scripture that also taught that same thing.

Jesus says elsewhere:

Joh*5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Joh*5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

There it is right there. Some of the Jews did not "learn from the Father", and therefore did not believe Jesus. The drawing of the Father is the light that He gave the Jews through the Prophets.

Jesus in John 6 taught doctrine and showed His doctrine was also in the Scripture to the Jews. What is written in John 5 is Jesus showing the Jews that they truly did not believe and follow Moses, or else they would see from the Scriptures that Moses spoke of Him.

And why didn't they see and believe? Jesus stated as a matter of absolute truth: "But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. "

What we are asking, is why not? Jesus' next statement after that one is:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Amy, in John 6 and surrounding chapters you are running smack dab into the doctrine of election and special/particular redemption.

Jesus says,

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus just told these Jews that they saw Him, but did not believe. He is also telling us that it is God's will, and Jesus does God's will, that everyone that God gives to Jesus that Jesus will not lose them, but raise them up. He also tells us that God's will is that everyone who sees and believes in Jesus may have everlasting life, and they will be raised up at the last day.

Keep following what is happening in John 6. The Jews then became offended at Jesus' words.

43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

If we keep with the whole progression of the text itself we are led to an undeniable conclusion:

1. The Father is giving people to Jesus. (election)
2. All that the Father does give to Jesus shall/will come to Jesus. (effectual calling)
3. It is the Father's will that Jesus loses none that the Father gives Him. (eternal security)
4. All that do come to Jesus, He will not reject. (free and open invitation of the Gospel)
5. Those who are coming are those who are seeing Jesus, and it is the Father's will that they have everlasting life.
6. No man can come to Jesus except the Father draw him.
7. Every man that has heard and learned of the Father, comes to Jesus. No maybe, not might.

If they have heard and learned of the Father, they come to Jesus. If they come to Jesus, then they are the ones given by the Father to the Son. If they are the ones given to Jesus, then they are the ones coming to Jesus and Jesus will not reject them. He gives them eternal life and will raise them up at the last day according to the will of God the Father.

I can't imagine how the text of Scripture in these places could be more plain and open that teach the doctrines of grace.