Regeneration: Begotten By God

[zrs6v4]

Actually the Pelagians, semi-Pelagians, Arminians, and other assorted non Cals, whom I call Freewillers, believe that Faith is inherent in human nature. They declare, sometimes viciously, that the Faith that enables them to accept GOD's gracious offer of Salvation is identical to the Faith that their car will start when they turn the key. :tongue3::smilewinkgrin::tongue3::smilewinkgrin:

yeah I think the difference is instead of God getting the glory at the moment we choose Him, they attribute the glory to Him for our ability He gave when we were created. In other words everyone has the same ability to trust Him. I think the actual ability to express saving faith in Christ is much different from our nature's ability.

 

[zrs6v4]

I dont want to speak for everyone though there are probably slightly different variants of non-cal views of the gift of faith

 

[OldRegular]

I dont want to speak for everyone though there are probably slightly different variants of non-cal views of the gift of faith

I suspect you are correct!

 

[DHK]

Faith is the word of Jesus as the scripture says, and that is faith that God is given man just as the scripture says.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Faith comes through hearing the message, and the message is heard through the microphone at the airport.
If I want to get saved (safely home), I will listen to the message over the microphone and believe what the airport authorities tell me (for the most part). Faith does not come from God.

 

[OldRegular]

I doubt it. What part of "the whole of...by grace through faith" was hard to comprehend?

I suppose it was the part where you said:

I never denied it was God's sacrifice, and that further supports the whole of "by grace are ye saved through faith" being the gift. [bold by OR]

Which implies that faith is a gift.

 

[Winman]

If you believe that faith is a supernatural gift, then you would have to believe that the Samaritan woman at the well had the power of Christ to give this gift.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

This verse clearly says many Samaritans believed on Christ because of the testimony of the Samaritan woman at the well. So, she must have had supernatural power from God if Calvinism is true.

And that this is saving faith is shown in the following verses.

John 4:40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

When these Samaritans who had believed on Jesus because of the testimony of the Samaritan woman heard Jesus's words for themselves, they told her that now they believed because of Jesus's words, and not her's only.

So, if faith is some supernatural gift, then this Samaritan woman had supernatural powers to impart faith through her words.

And notice that regeneration is not shown. These people believed simply because they heard and believed the Samaritan woman, and later when they heard Jesus.

Calvinists simply will not believe what the scriptures say, faith comes by hearing the word of God. It is not some magical, mystical, supernatural happening. Any many who chooses to hear the word of God and believe it will have faith.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Amazing how Paul, the greatest theologian other than Christ himself would forget to mention that a man must be regenerated by the Holy Spirit to have faith, and simply says a man must hear the word of God. You would have thought he would have mentioned that here. Not only did he neglect to mention it here, he neglected to mention it anywhere else in scripture, as did all the apostles, the prophets, and Christ himself.

 

[OldRegular]

If you believe that faith is a supernatural gift, then you would have to believe that the Samaritan woman at the well had the power of Christ to give this gift.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

This verse clearly says many Samaritans believed on Christ because of the testimony of the Samaritan woman at the well. So, she must have had supernatural power from God if Calvinism is true.

And that this is saving faith is shown in the following verses.

Even your eisegesis is faulty!!:smilewinkgrin: This Scripture does not say that the woman gave anything other than her testimony. Where does it say that she gave the gift of Faith?

 

[Winman]

It says the Samaritans believed on Jesus FOR the the saying of the woman. That word "for" means "because of".

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

Here is scripture explaining why these people believed. It was the woman's testimony that caused them to believe Jesus was the promised Christ. This is shown many times in scripture.

Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

Here, Peter and the apostles preached the word of God and the scriptures say that about five thousand men believed. Not one word about being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, only that they heard the word.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Here Paul preached to men out of the law of Moses and the prophets, in othe words, the word of God. Some men believed and some did not. But not one mention of regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This verse says men trusted or believed after they heard the word of truth, the gospel. It also says they received the Holy Spirit AFTER believing.

OR, I could show you a hundred more examples, but I doubt it would do a bit of good. You already have your mind made up. The scriptures show that faith or believing comes by hearing the word of God, not by being regenerated. In fact, the scriptures clearly show regeneration follows hearing the word of God and believing. I have showed you many examples already, but you refuse to accept the clear teaching of scripture.

But hopefully others will read the scriptures for themselves and see this is the truth.

 

[OldRegular]

It says the Samaritans believed on Jesus FOR the the saying of the woman. That word "for" means "because of".

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

Here is scripture explaining why these people believed. It was the woman's testimony that caused them to believe Jesus was the promised Christ. This is shown many times in scripture.

Acts 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

Here, Peter and the apostles preached the word of God and the scriptures say that about five thousand men believed. Not one word about being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, only that they heard the word.

Acts 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Here Paul preached to men out of the law of Moses and the prophets, in othe words, the word of God. Some men believed and some did not. But not one mention of regeneration by the Holy Spirit.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This verse says men trusted or believed after they heard the word of truth, the gospel. It also says they received the Holy Spirit AFTER believing.

OR, I could show you a hundred more examples, but I doubt it would do a bit of good. You already have your mind made up. The scriptures show that faith or believing comes by hearing the word of God, not by being regenerated. In fact, the scriptures clearly show regeneration follows hearing the word of God and believing. I have showed you many examples already, but you refuse to accept the clear teaching of scripture.

But hopefully others will read the scriptures for themselves and see this is the truth.

Even your eisegesis is faulty!! This Scripture does not say that the woman gave anything other than her testimony. Where does it say that she gave the gift of Faith?

When you have nothing else to do Winman you might ruminate on the following Scripture:

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[/COLOR]

 

[DHK]

Even your eisegesis is faulty!! This Scripture does not say that the woman gave anything other than her testimony. Where does it say that she gave the gift of Faith?

When you have nothing else to do Winman you might ruminate on the following Scripture:

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

We are born again by the Word of God; in that you have even admitted.
The gospel message is the Word of God that is referred to, and it is received through faith, by believing. We are born again by faith, as the Word teaches here.

 

[Winman]

Even your eisegesis is faulty!! This Scripture does not say that the woman gave anything other than her testimony. Where does it say that she gave the gift of Faith?

When you have nothing else to do Winman you might ruminate on the following Scripture:

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[/COLOR]

OR, I'm sorry to say this, but you are exceedingly stubborn. I clearly explained myself.

I said IF CALVINISM IS TRUE (which it isn't) then a person would have to believe that the Samaritan woman had the supernatural ability to impart faith, because the Samaritans believed because of her testimony.

But Calvinism is not true. These people believed on Christ because of the testimony of the Samaritan woman. Believing is not supernatural. It is natural, and every man on earth has the ability to believe.

Hearing the word of God is not supernatural. Believing the word of God is not supernatural. But when a person believes, then God gives them the power (Holy Spirit) to become the sons of God. This giving of the Holy Spirit by God is supernatural.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

To whom does God give the power to become the sons of God? To those that receive Jesus and believe on his name. Regeneration follows belief.

You understand quite clearly what I am saying but refuse to accept it. I have shown you many scriptures and passages that show men hearing the word of God, believing it, and then afterward receiving the Holy Spirit.

But you would rather cling to your belief. That is your right, but I don't think it very wise.

And look at the verse you submitted, it proves you in error.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

No non-Cal denies that we are born again by the will of God. I am in 100% agreement with you there. But we are born again "with" the word of truth.

Calvinism reverses this and says the exact opposite. Calvinism and DoGs say God regenerates a man, and only following regeneration does a man have the desire to hear the scriptures, or the ability to understand the scriptures, or the ability to believe the scriptures.

That is the exact opposite of what the scriptures teach.

A man must hear the word of God, repent and believe before God regenerates him. In your system faith and repentance are not required for regeneration.

I have a feeling this is why this doctrine is very popular among some people.

 

[OldRegular]

OR, I'm sorry to say this, but you are exceedingly stubborn. I clearly explained myself.

I said IF CALVINISM IS TRUE (which it isn't) then a person would have to believe that the Samaritan woman had the supernatural ability to impart faith, because the Samaritans believed because of her testimony.

Winman you are simply wrong. Whether one believes in Calvinism or not has nothing to do with what the woman said and the reception of her testimony. You say that is Calvinism were true she supernaturally imparted faith to the Samaritans. That is pure nonsense. there is nothing in the text that even mentioned faith. You are assuming that GOD could not have imparted faith to those who believed.

And look at the verse you submitted, it proves you in error.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

No non-Cal denies that we are born again by the will of God. I am in 100% agreement with you there. But we are born again "with" the word of truth.

That is not what you have said in the past. You have insisted that you were regenerated because of your own free will, not because of the will of GOD. So you need to ruminate some more on this Scripture and compare what you say now to your previous assertions.

 

[Winman]

Winman you are simply wrong. Whether one believes in Calvinism or not has nothing to do with what the woman said and the reception of her testimony. You say that is Calvinism were true she supernaturally imparted faith to the Samaritans. That is pure nonsense. there is nothing in the text that even mentioned faith. You are assuming that GOD could not have imparted faith to those who believed.

That is not what you have said in the past. You have insisted that you were regenerated because of your own free will, not because of the will of GOD. So you need to ruminate some more on this Scripture and compare what you say now to your previous assertions.

Faith is absolutely mentioned in this verse. Read again.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

As concerning your second paragraph, how does a person freely trusting in Christ take away the fact that we are born again by God's will?

God wants every person to be saved and born again. That is his will. And he has provided the means to do so. He gave his son Jesus to die for my sins. He provided prophets and apostles to give us the holy scriptures so we could learn of salvation through his Son.

If Jesus says, "Come unto me", that is his will. And if I come to him willingly, I have performed his will. If I resist and do not come, then I have usurped his authority and sovereignty, not if I obey.

See, I don't understand the reasoning of Calvinists and DoGs. If I obey Jesus and come to him and believe on him as he commanded, how can I be usurping his sovereignty? That doesn't make a bit of sense. How can I be rebellious against God by obeying his command?

Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Jesus said "come unto me". I did that, I came to him in my heart. I obeyed him. How does that usurp his sovereignty?

I tell ya, some of the reasoning you Cals and DoGs have does not make a lot of sense at all.

 

[psalms109:31]

Faith

Without the word of Jesus you cannot have saving Faith. You have nothing to believe in to have faith. My Faith that saved me didn't come from me or a airport microphone it came from the word of Jesus period.

 

[OldRegular]

Faith is absolutely mentioned in this verse. Read again.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

Winman.

In your initial post on this passage of Scripture you said that Calvinists would have to believe that the woman supernaturally imparted faith to those who heard her testimony. That is hogwash.

 

[DHK]

Without the word of Jesus you cannot have saving Faith. You have nothing to believe in to have faith. My Faith that saved me didn't come from me or a airport microphone it came from the word of Jesus period.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
You heard the good news of Jesus.
You believed it was good news, and that good news was true.
You put your faith in Christ. He was the object of your faith, and it was based on the Word that you heard--the Word of God by which we are born again. The Holy Spirit also convicts us of our sin at the same time. Nevertheless Christ will not give faith to an unsaved person or unregenerate person. To be regenerated one must have faith, their own faith. God isn't going to give it to them. Salvation is by faith. The object of that faith is Christ.

 

[psalms109:31]

The only faith I possessed was in myself. The faith that was given to me by God is to is to take it off myself and put it on Jesus. This faith didn't come from me it come from God through the words of Jesus. I can't see this faith coming from me. The Faith I have came from the word of God. Faith had to come from God through His word for what I had was wrong. I believe that is what I can do, but faith comes from God. When I believe God gives me faith. See the belief came from me, but my faith came from God.

 

[DHK]

The only faith I possessed was in myself. The faith that was given to me by God is to is to take it off myself and put it on Jesus. This faith didn't come from me it come from God through the words of Jesus. I can't see this faith coming from me. The Faith I have came from the word of God. Faith had to come from God through His word for what I had was wrong. I believe that is what I can do, but faith comes from God. When I believe God gives me faith. See the belief came from me, but my faith came from God.

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
Put your faith on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.

The two statements are the same. To believe and have faith are the same. They cannot be differentiated as you have just attempted to do. Just because believe was used as a verb and faith was used as a noun does not make them different in essence.

 

[Winman]

Winman.

In your initial post on this passage of Scripture you said that Calvinists would have to believe that the woman supernaturally imparted faith to those who heard her testimony. That is hogwash.

No, this verse says the Samaritans believed on Jesus because of the testimony of the Samaritan woman. It is telling exactly what caused them to believe. So if you believe faith is a supernatural gift, this verse is saying they received this faith from the woman.

And that is confirmed a few verses later.

John 4:40 So when the Samaritans were come unto him, they besought him that he would tarry with them: and he abode there two days.
41 And many more believed because of his own word;
42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

After these Samaritans heard the testimony of the woman at the well, they went out and found Jesus and asked if he would stay with them, which he did for two days. Then it says many more believed. Why? Because of his own word. Notice regeneration is not mentioned.

Then they said to the woman that they believed on Jesus because they what? Because they HEARD him themselves.

Rom 10:17 says faith comes by hearing the word of God. When these Samaritans heard the testimony about Jesus they believed on him. And when they heard Jesus themselves many more believed.

Not one word about being regenerated. They believed because they heard the word of God.

The scriptures are clearly showing the reason and cause these persons believed, but you will not accept it because it contradicts your doctrine. That's too bad.

An unsaved person can go to church and hear the word of God preached and believe. There is no magic involved. But when a person places their trust in Jesus, then and only then do they receive the Holy Spirit and are regenerated. This regeneration is a supernatural work given to those who first believe on Jesus.

 

[LaymansTermsPlease]

If I obey Jesus and come to him and believe on him as he commanded, how can I be usurping his sovereignty? That doesn't make a bit of sense.

And how many times must we repeatedly refute this claim that faith is a work...a claim made to support cries of sovereignty-usurping "synergism".

To the one who is believing, NOT working.

For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his pay is not credited due to grace but due to obligation. But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous, his faith is credited as righteousness.