OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Pure Hogwash!
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Regeneration: Begotten By God
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
Pure Hogwash!
psalms109:31
Active Member
Faith and belief
I am ask to believe and it is God who gives faith, they are different. My belief comes from be me faith came from God.
Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Ephesians 4:
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[Psalm 68:18] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[Or the depths of the earth] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[Psalm 4:4]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
I am ask to believe and it is God who gives faith, they are different. My belief comes from be me faith came from God.
Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Ephesians 4:
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[Psalm 68:18] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[Or the depths of the earth] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[Psalm 4:4]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
And how many times must we repeatedly refute this claim that faith is a work...a claim made to support cries of sovereignty-usurping "synergism".
To the one who is believing, NOT working.
Exactly. Calvinism and DoGs actually say that obeying Jesus and coming to him in repentance as he commanded is usurping his sovereignty. That is utterly absurd.
Acts 19:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision:
According to Calvinism and DoGs, Paul usurped God by obeying Jesus.
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
If obeying the gospel and coming to Christ usurps God's sovereignty, then Paul is thanking God that these Christians usurped His sovereignty.
Like I said, I do not understand the reasoning of Calvinists and DoGs. They believe obeying God is evil. Incredible.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
According to Calvinism and DoGs, Paul usurped God by obeying Jesus.
Winman
You are unreal. You are making accusations when you have no idea what you are talking about. Your statement above is a flat out lie. Show me where anyone who believes in the Sovereign Doctrines of Grace claims that obedience to Jesus Christ is usurping His authority. The reason we believe the
Sovereign Doctrines of Grace is that we do obey Jesus Christ who is GOD.
There is no unsaved man that is given faith by God.I am ask to believe and it is God who gives faith, they are different. My belief comes from be me faith came from God.
Romans 12:3
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.
Ephesians 4:
7But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. 8This is why it[Psalm 68:18] says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[Or the depths of the earth] 9(What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions[Psalm 4:4]? 10He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) 11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Note that every verse you quoted is addressed to believers, and has nothing to do with salvation. Every verse you quoted is entirely outside the context of salvation.
Winman
You are unreal. You are making accusations when you have no idea what you are talking about. Your statement above is a flat out lie. Show me where anyone who believes in the Sovereign Doctrines of Grace claims that obedience to Jesus Christ is usurping His authority. The reason we believe the
Sovereign Doctrines of Grace is that we do obey Jesus Christ who is GOD.
You believe if a person comes to Jesus Christ they are usurping God's sovereignty, you and others have said this many, many times.
Jesus said "Come unto me"
Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Jesus will not give you rest unless you obey him and come to him. But Cals and DoGs say this is a work that usurps God's sovereignty.
Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Again, God commands us to come to him.
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
God commands us to seek him and call upon him. And notice these people are in their sins when they do so.
And notice repentance is required from the Lord, he says if we forsake our wicked ways and thoughts and return unto him that then he will have mercy upon us and pardon us for our sins.
But there is neither repentance or faith in your doctrine, in fact, you teach a man does not have the ability to either repent or have faith unless God first regenerates him.
Again, your doctrine teaches exactly the opposite of what scripture says.
Jesus said come unto me. I obeyed and came to him just as he commanded. I did not usurp his authority or sovereignty, but you say I did.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Word of God
The words of Jesus is faith that when is preached is given to all men. Then they have two roads placed in from of him to believe and be saved or not and be condemned. They don't possess the faith until they believe. It is given to unsaved man, but if they don't believe they will not get it. Our belief and the faith from God given to man is two different things. Belief and faith our the same just a noun and a verb
The words of Jesus is faith that when is preached is given to all men. Then they have two roads placed in from of him to believe and be saved or not and be condemned. They don't possess the faith until they believe. It is given to unsaved man, but if they don't believe they will not get it. Our belief and the faith from God given to man is two different things. Belief and faith our the same just a noun and a verb
I heard of a Muslim who memorized the entire NT, but remained unsaved. Yet, according to you he would still have great faith. Correct? For "the words of Jesus is faith."The words of Jesus is faith that when is preached is given to all men.
And how would the individual be aware of this? Do they have a special feeling? Some type of revelation? Hear an audible voice? See a vision? What tells them that all of a sudden they have a divine faith of some sort?Then they have two roads placed in from of him to believe and be saved or not and be condemned. They don't possess the faith until they believe.
So Jesus is an "Indian giver" (not meaning to be racist). In other words he gives and then "steals" it back again--almost like taking candy from a baby. That makes him dishonest and a cruel God.It is given to unsaved man, but if they don't believe they will not get it.
Yes belief and faith are the same. It is required for a man to be saved. For by grace are ye saved through faith. But the faith is not the faith of Jesus. He does not force you to be saved. He wants you to choose Him. He gave you the will to choose or reject Him. He did not create you a robot, but with a will to put your faith in him.Our belief and the faith from God given to man is two different things. Belief and faith our the same just a noun and a verb
And I have news for you. If you think you can just sit back and wait for God to come to you, you are sadly mistaken.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
I'll give you some friendly advice, come to Jesus. I would disregard what men say and do what Jesus said.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
I'll give you some friendly advice, come to Jesus. I would disregard what men say and do what Jesus said.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
:applause::applause::applause::applause:You believe if a person comes to Jesus Christ they are usurping God's sovereignty, you and others have said this many, many times.
Jesus said "Come unto me"
Matt 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Jesus will not give you rest unless you obey him and come to him. But Cals and DoGs say this is a work that usurps God's sovereignty.
Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.
Again, God commands us to come to him.
Isa 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
God commands us to seek him and call upon him. And notice these people are in their sins when they do so.
And notice repentance is required from the Lord, he says if we forsake our wicked ways and thoughts and return unto him that then he will have mercy upon us and pardon us for our sins.
But there is neither repentance or faith in your doctrine, in fact, you teach a man does not have the ability to either repent or have faith unless God first regenerates him.
Again, your doctrine teaches exactly the opposite of what scripture says.
Jesus said come unto me. I obeyed and came to him just as he commanded. I did not usurp his authority or sovereignty, but you say I did.
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Unless you can prove the above statement that is another lie.
That is laughable. You should run for political office.
Originally Posted by Winman
You believe if a person comes to Jesus Christ they are usurping God's sovereignty, you and others have said this many, many times.
Unless you can prove the above statement that is another lie.
It is said by Calvinists that choosing God is making man sovereign. Coming to Jesus and choosing Him are the same thing.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Faith without deeds
By just preaching the word of Jesus you have the Faith because the word of Jesus is faith comes from. God gives, but you cannot possess it until u take it. He hasn't given you anything the offer in it self is given, but you have to accept it to get it. God isn't an Indian giver. I can give you something, but i cannot force you to take it.
Romans 10:
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[Deut. 30:12] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame
James 2:
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
By just preaching the word of Jesus you have the Faith because the word of Jesus is faith comes from. God gives, but you cannot possess it until u take it. He hasn't given you anything the offer in it self is given, but you have to accept it to get it. God isn't an Indian giver. I can give you something, but i cannot force you to take it.
Romans 10:
8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[Deut. 30:12] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame
James 2:
Faith and Deeds
14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
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By just preaching the word of Jesus you have the Faith because the word of Jesus is faith. God gives, but you cannot possess it until u take it. He hasn't given you anything the offer in it self is given, but you have to accept it to get it. God isn't an Indian giver. I can give you something, but i cannot force you to take it.
You are close. Jesus said his words were spirit and life.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But you are correct, Jesus provides the spirit and the life, but you must take of it, this is your responsibility.
Here is scripture that shows this, where Jesus speaks of everlasting life as water.
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Jesus offers us life. Here it is described as water. But we have to drink it. I could give you a glass of water, you could set it on a table and never drink it. It would not nourish you at all.
Jesus doesn't pry open our mouth and pour this living water down our throat. He offers it to us freely, but we must take it and drink it ourselves.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
You are close. Jesus said his words were spirit and life.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
But you are correct, Jesus provides the spirit and the life, but you must take of it, this is your responsibility.
Here is scripture that shows this, where Jesus speaks of everlasting life as water.
John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
Jesus offers us life. Here it is described as water. But we have to drink it. I could give you a glass of water, you could set it on a table and never drink it. It would not nourish you at all.
Jesus doesn't pry open our mouth and pour this living water down our throat. He offers it to us freely, but we must take it and drink it ourselves.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
You are correct. Without the word of Jesus which is Spirit and life man cannot even possess faith. It is His word that regenerates us when we believe or drink. It is not what we have done that saved us but Jesus because without His word we cannot be saved.
You are correct. Without the word of Jesus which is Spirit and life man cannot even possess faith. It is His word that regenerates us when we believe or drink. It is not what we have done that saved us but Jesus because without His word we cannot be saved.
You got it. :thumbsup:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
It is said by Calvinists that choosing God is making man sovereign. Coming to Jesus and choosing Him are the same thing.
Not really Amy.G!
Calvinists, as you like to call them, believe that man in his fallen state is unable of his own so-called free will to do anything relative to reconciliation with GOD.
1 Corinthians 2:14. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The natural man is the unregenerate man and his so-called free will is in bondage to sin.
Romans 6:16. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Ephesians 2:2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Before fallen man is able to come to Jesus Christ it requires an act of Grace on the part of GOD.
John 6:65. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
That act of Grace is defined further in John 1:13, John 3:3-8, Ephesians 2:1-8, and Titus 3:5
It is only after man is begotten from GOD [born again], regenerated , or made spiritually alive that he is able to respond to the Gospel Call, exercise the faith which GOD has given him, and come to JESUS CHRIST. But come he will.
John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 10:26-29
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
The sheep of Jesus Christ are those who have been regenerated by the Grace of GOD. They come to Jesus Christ, they respond to the Gospel Call, exercise their GOD given faith and experience Conversion. They follow JESUS CHRIST and are obedient to HIM. All this nonsense being spouted that the doctrine of the Sovereign Grace of GOD usurps GOD'd authority, teaches disobedience to GOD, or makes the sacrificial death of JESUS CHRIST unnecessary is simply a dastardly lie. The entire justification for the Doctrines of Grace or Calvinism is the Sovereignty of GOD and of course the teaching of Scripture.
Amy.G
I know that all the above Scripture is familiar to you. However, we cannot omit them simply because we may not understand or disagree with them anymore than I or anyone who holds the views that I do can ignore all the Scripture others have posted about believing the Word of God. We do believe. We just insist that, as Scripture teaches, God must perform an act of Grace in our lives before we are able to do so. Think back about your conversion. Can you say with absolute certainty that GOD did not perform such an act before you believed?
psalms109:31
Active Member
scripture
Romans 5:
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 7:24
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
John 10:26-29
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.
Romans 5:
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.
15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 7:24
What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
John 10:26-29
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.
LaymansTermsPlease
Member
John 6:44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself.
And since no one here is a Universalist, we know Christ didn't mean here that all who are drawn will respond.....but all are drawn.
John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself.
And since no one here is a Universalist, we know Christ didn't mean here that all who are drawn will respond.....but all are drawn.
So, we've got a problem here. John 12:32 says that Christ will "draw all to Himself". And John 6:44 says that all those who are drawn will be raised up on the last day.
If Universalism isn't true as you say, then please reconcile these two scriptures.