Regeneration: Begotten By God

[zrs6v4]

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself.

And since no one here is a Universalist, we know Christ didn't mean here that all who are drawn will respond.....but all are drawn.

In my opinion that is a mistake. I think John 12:32 is speaking to the elect only, because in previous we read that everyone who is drawn and taught by God will come to Jesus. I would say that if you try to say that all are drawn then that would be univeralism

 

[LaymansTermsPlease]

When we have a problem, then it's usually a "context" problem...as in these two places have different contexts.

Best I can tell in John 6, He's talking to His specific disciples, particular Jews chosen to be his disciples (many left by chapter's end). These are the disciples the Father gave Him during His earthly ministry...He won't lose any of them, and will raise them up at the last day.

In John 12, He's talking about how things will be after Calvary. After He's accomplished His mission of the cross, then it's no longer a particular drawing. All are drawn...no longer only certain ones the Father gave Him for His mission. All will not respond after Calvary, but all are drawn.

So, we've got a problem here. John 12:32 says that Christ will "draw all to Himself". And John 6:44 says that all those who are drawn will be raised up on the last day.

If Universalism isn't true as you say, then please reconcile these two scriptures.

 

[pinoybaptist]

In John 12, He's talking about how things will be after Calvary. After He's accomplished His mission of the cross, then it's no longer a particular drawing. All are drawn...no longer only certain ones the Father gave Him for His mission. All will not respond after Calvary, but all are drawn.

IF He did accomplish His mission at the cross, then your statement is wrong and Paul's is correct:

For whom he did foreknow , he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate , them he also called : and whom he called , them he also justified : and whom he justified , them he also glorified .

Whom and them seems to me to be particular and specific objective and formal terms, even to one not born speaking the English language. Moreover, called and drawn do not have that much difference, unless one goes into linguistic calisthenics as many are wont to do here on this board.

 

[OldRegular]

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself.

And since no one here is a Universalist, we know Christ didn't mean here that all who are drawn will respond.....but all are drawn.

Jesus Christ also said:

Matthew 22:14. For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Allan]

So, we've got a problem here. John 12:32 says that Christ will "draw all to Himself". And John 6:44 says that all those who are drawn will be raised up on the last day.

If Universalism isn't true as you say, then please reconcile these two scriptures.

That is EASY

Just take out the word you which you added to scripture to make it say what you want.
Your revised version.

John 6:44 says that all those who are drawn will be raised up on the last day

WHat scripture 'actually' says:

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

The statement by John emphatically says only those who are drawn CAN come.. yet it does not state nor insuates that ALL those drawn WILL come. This is reading into the text a presupposition that context does not allow for.
While I agree that only those drawn can come to Christ Jesus himself even places the coming on man's choice in the very next verse.

Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

Notice and do some research on the words heard and learned and comes. It is important here because you rendering of the passage would mean their hearing and learning would be passive (God doing this to them) so that they will come. However the passage actaully states the hearing and learing are active (meaning we not God are doing the action) and thus as God teaches men, everyone who will listen and will learn (choose to) from the Father, comes to me.

Here even Jesus declares we must choose to hear what God is teaching us and to learn. This is the same thing Paul states in Hebr 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Notice also that Pauls 'when you hear His voice' then states emphatically 'do not hearden your hearts'. Thus here is a direct passage that states those whom God teaches, can choose not to listen and learn but hearden their hearts and thereby not come. We know this also because Paul establishes the fact that they could not enter His rest due to unbelief.

 

[Allan]

Jesus Christ also said:

Matthew 22:14. For many are called, but few are chosen.

Yes, and if you take the passage in context you will note that 'many' directly refers ALL men being called (note who was called first and then to whom the call went out next) and the chosen are all those who came.

 

[OldRegular]

Yes, and if you take the passage in context you will note that 'many' directly refers ALL men being called (note who was called first and then to whom the call went out next) and the chosen are all those who came.

The chosen are the ones that God chose unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world and made accepted in the Beloved.

Ephesians 1:3-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

 

[Robert Snow]

So, we've got a problem here. John 12:32 says that Christ will "draw all to Himself". And John 6:44 says that all those who are drawn will be raised up on the last day.

If Universalism isn't true as you say, then please reconcile these two scriptures.

You fail to look at all of John 6:44

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Father will draw and the Son will raise up all who come to Jesus. The first clause limits who will be raised up. It is those who come to Jesus.

 

[psalms109:31]

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

1 Peter 2:6
For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

1 Peter 1:18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

Romans 7:4
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Romans 12:5
so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

1 Corinthians 12:12
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

One in Christ
11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Ephesians 2:19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

It was Jesus body that was chosen before the foundation the only way we were chosen was by being in it. None of you including myself were worthy of being chosen, but being in Jesus where God doesn't see you but His Son. You in of yourself can never be chosen, but only in Christ could you be. Don't think highly of yourself but highly of Him.

 

[psalms109:31]

That is EASY

Just take out the word you which you added to scripture to make it say what you want.
Your revised version.

WHat scripture 'actually' says:


The statement by John emphatically says only those who are drawn CAN come.. yet it does not state nor insuates that ALL those drawn WILL come. This is reading into the text a presupposition that context does not allow for.
While I agree that only those drawn can come to Christ Jesus himself even places the coming on man's choice in the very next verse.

Notice and do some research on the words heard and learned and comes. It is important here because you rendering of the passage would mean their hearing and learning would be passive (God doing this to them) so that they will come. However the passage actaully states the hearing and learing are active (meaning we not God are doing the action) and thus as God teaches men, everyone who will listen and will learn (choose to) from the Father, comes to me.

Here even Jesus declares we must choose to hear what God is teaching us and to learn. This is the same thing Paul states in Hebr 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Notice also that Pauls 'when you hear His voice' then states emphatically 'do not hearden your hearts'. Thus here is a direct passage that states those whom God teaches, can choose not to listen and learn but hearden their hearts and thereby not come. We know this also because Paul establishes the fact that they could not enter His rest due to unbelief.

You said it better than I ever could

 

[Skandelon]

In Matthew 5:48, Jesus outlines this requirement: "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

This appears to be a command for us to be perfect, like God. Yet we can't.

Isn't Jesus demanding something of us that it is impossible to do?

Nope. He commands us to be perfect, and then he provides the means for us to be perfect through faith in the one who lived a perfect life, which only impossible if you believe like a Calvinist.

 

[jcjordan]

You fail to look at all of John 6:44

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The Father will draw and the Son will raise up all who come to Jesus. The first clause limits who will be raised up. It is those who come to Jesus.

o.k....go back to verse 37.
Also, if the Father draws everyone.....then He has failed miserably. You've put the Trinity at odds with one another.

 

[Tom Butler]

Nope. He commands us to be perfect, and then he provides the means for us to be perfect through faith in the one who lived a perfect life, which only impossible if you believe like a Calvinist.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I have to ask for clarification. Are you saying it's possible for believers to live a perfect, sinless life? Please expand on the post.

 

[Allan]

The chosen are the ones that God chose unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world and made accepted in the Beloved.

Ephesians 1:3-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Yep, and it fits 100% with what I am saying :thumbs:

 

[Skandelon]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I have to ask for clarification. Are you saying it's possible for believers to live a perfect, sinless life? Please expand on the post.

I mean that Christ's righteousness is applied to us through faith in Him. So, God DOES provide the means to accomplish "perfection." Unless, of course, you believe like a Calvinist and then that is only provided for the "elect." (no, i'm not arguing we can live sinless lives this side of glory)

 

[Skandelon]

o.k....go back to verse 37.
Also, if the Father draws everyone.....then He has failed miserably. You've put the Trinity at odds with one another.

Did he fail miserably with Israel? After all scripture says,

"21 But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

and

51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

and

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

 

[Skandelon]

When we have a problem, then it's usually a "context" problem...as in these two places have different contexts.

Best I can tell in John 6, He's talking to His specific disciples, particular Jews chosen to be his disciples (many left by chapter's end). These are the disciples the Father gave Him during His earthly ministry...He won't lose any of them, and will raise them up at the last day.

In John 12, He's talking about how things will be after Calvary. After He's accomplished His mission of the cross, then it's no longer a particular drawing. All are drawn...no longer only certain ones the Father gave Him for His mission. All will not respond after Calvary, but all are drawn.

YESSSSS!!! Thank you!!! Finally, someone else on this board making some sense with regard to this passage. When you read Jn 6 with this view objectively it makes SOOO much more sense than the other rendering being offered.

Calvinists insist that the reason Jesus' audience couldn't believe was because they were born Totally Depraved and were not elect, but that is not what the scripture says. The scripture tells us exactly why they couldn't believe in John 12:39-41. They were being Judicially Hardened. All the Jews were except for the Remnant of Jews who were being reserved by God and given to Christ. THIS is what Jesus is referring to in John 6 and it is soooo obvious when you read the entire letter with this perspective objectively in your mind. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Allan]

YESSSSS!!! Thank you!!! Finally, someone else on this board making some sense with regard to this passage. When you read Jn 6 with this view objectively it makes SOOO much more sense than the other rendering being offered.

This is also refered to in Jesus prayer to the Father in John 17, all that you have given me, I have kept (except the son of perdition).

 

[Skandelon]

This is also refered to in Jesus prayer to the Father in John 17, all that you have given me, I have kept (except the son of perdition).

Exactly! We actually discussed this at church this evening. When people understand the historical context of Israel's Judicial hardening in light of the remnant from Israel being reserved from that hardening process much of the confusion disappears. As a former Calvinist I never understood this and it really surprises me that so many very smart believers can't seem to get this. I think in many ways they have grown so entrenched within their perspective they can't objectively view these matters any longer.

 

[Robert Snow]

o.k....go back to verse 37.
Also, if the Father draws everyone.....then He has failed miserably. You've put the Trinity at odds with one another.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

When the Gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit draws those who choose to hear the Gospel. The Father has then given to Christ those who will choose to put their trust in His finished work on Calvary. It is the same when witnessing one on one. If the person chooses to listen to the Gospel message and will yield to the Holy Spirit and believe the Gospel and trust in Christ, they will be saved and become one of the elect.