Your View On The Roman Catholics

[annsni]

First, you say that Muslims cannot be saved because they don't put their faith in Christ.

Then, you say that Mormons cannot be saved because, although they do put their faith in Christ, it isn't the "correct" Christ.

So why, then, does it not stand to reason that a person can put his belief in the "correct" Christ, but still not be saved because his belief is wrong?

Are all beliefs valid, simply because the object of the belief is valid?

If they believe as the Bible tells us to believe, then the belief is valid. Are there extra beliefs? Yes but not every Catholic believes those beliefs and not all of them compromise the Gospel.

 

[Baptist4life]

The Catholic Church has proclaimed five Dogmas about Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ:
1- Mary Mother of God, 431.
2- Mary always Virgin, before the birth of Jesus, during the birth, and after the birth of Jesus, 649.
3- Mary Immaculate: On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX issued the bull Ineffabilis Deus, which proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, "preserved free from all guilt of original sin".
4- The Assumption of Mary, on November 1, 1950, when Pope Pius XII stated that Mary was "taken up body and soul into heaven," and "exalted as Queen of the Universe."
5- A fifth dogma is "Mother of the Church", proclaimed by Paul VI, Second Vatican Council, Nov. 21, 1964

6- Lately, the Pope is being urged to proclaim Mary with another three titles, with three dogmas:
- The Co-redeemer or Co-redemptrix,
- The Mediatrix, or Mediator of all graces,
- The Advocate for the people of God, Intercessor, Helper, Benefactress.

The Maternal Mediation of Mary is under its three essential aspects of Co-Redeemer ("the Mother Suffering"), Mediator("the Mother Nourishing"), and Advocate ("the Mother Interceding")... so, these three dogmas are interrelated and may be it is only one, because the roles of a mother, as heart of the family, are multiform but the truth of her motherhood is singular, only one!.

This last triple dogma would be the climax of the Age of Mary, and like all dogmas is right now highly debated within the Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox. In fact, the reason of any dogma proclaimed by the Church is to clarify and assert the truth on any important biblical issue when it is being debated with controversies among the faithful... this was the case of the declaration by the Church of the dogmas of the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus, the Divinity of the Person of the Holy Spirit... all the dogmas declared were under high controversy at the time of their proclamation!.

Once the dogma is pronounced, all the doubts end, at least for the faithful of the Catholic Church.




THAT IS HERESY!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I posted a link, but apparently it's not allowed since that whole post is now gone.


USA : HOLY DAYS OF OBLIGATION

The days to be observed as holy days of obligation in the Latin Rite dioceses of the United States of America, in conformity with canon 1246, are as follows:

Every Sunday

January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God; (Except in Southern California. Why? I don’t know) Thursday of the Sixth Week of Easter, the solemnity of the Ascension;
August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary;
November 1, the solemnity of All Saints;
December 8, the solemnity of the Immaculate Conception;
December 25, the solemnity of the Nativity of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Whenever January 1, the solemnity of Mary, Mother of God, or August 15, the solemnity of the Assumption, or November 1, the solemnity of All Saints, falls on a Saturday or on a Monday, the precept to attend Mass is abrogated.

MORTAL SIN=Grave Sin + Knowledge+ Free Choice CCC

II. THE PRECEPTS OF THE CHURCH These are the bare minimum that a person must do to be in good standing in the Faith of Jesus Christ.

2041 The precepts of the Church are set in the context of a moral life bound to and nourished by liturgical life. The obligatory character of these positive laws decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor:

2042 The first precept (“You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor”) requires the faithful to sanctify the day commemorating the Resurrection of the Lord as well as the principal liturgical feasts honoring the mysteries of the Lord, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the saints; in the first place, by participating in the Eucharistic celebration, in which the Christian community is gathered, and by resting from those works and activities which could impede such a sanctification of these days.82 The second precept (“You shall confess your sins at least once a year”) ensures preparation for the Eucharist by the reception of the sacrament of reconciliation, which continues Baptism’s work of conversion and forgiveness.83

The third precept (“You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season”) guarantees as a minimum the reception of the Lord’s Body and Blood in connection with the Paschal feasts, the origin and center of the Christian liturgy.84

2043 The fourth precept (“You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church”) ensures the times of ascesis and penance which prepare us for the liturgical feasts and help us acquire mastery over our instincts and freedom of heart.

Nothing in your quote suggest that they loose salvation if they don't attend. It seems to say they aren't guaranteed it either. I'll look at the referrence in the CCC.

 

[Baptist4life]

BTW, I am not trying to bash catholics by this. As I said I have very many catholics in my family and I love them dearly. But they are NOT Christians! I know very well what they believe and MUST believe. They are very sincere, but they are sincerely WRONG.

 

[Johnv]

Nothing in your quote suggest that they loose salvation if they don't attend. It seems to say they aren't guaranteed it either. I'll look at the referrence in the CCC.

You're correct. Protestants get hung up on the word "obligation", as though it were salvific or something. The phrase simply means those are the minimum requirements for attendance which is expected of practicing Catholics. BTW, the reason SoCal doesn't have Jan1 as a holy day of obligation this years is because of an existing church custom in the US of the obligation not existing if said day falls on a Saturday ot Monday. The Los Angeles diocese formally extends that policy to Fridays as well. The Orange and San Diego Diocese do the same thing in practice, but not formally.

BTW, I am not trying to bash catholics by this. As I said I have very many catholics in my family and I love them dearly. But they are NOT Christians! I know very well what they believe and MUST believe. They are very sincere, but they are sincerely WRONG.

Being a member of any church, whether it's Catholic or other, neither affirms nor negates one's salvation. I live in a heavily Catholic part of the country (at least, compared to where some of you folks reside), and every Catholic I know (more than casually) is a Christian. Part of that might be the more progressive nature of the local diocese, I don't know. OTOH, that doesn't mean that diocese in other parts of the country or world are similar. You might have a diocese in one are that is very biblically forward, while another one elsewhere might be biblically backward. You certainly see that in protestant regions, so it would not be unusual to see this in the practice of catholicism from region to region.

 

[Peggy]

BTW, I am not trying to bash catholics by this. As I said I have very many catholics in my family and I love them dearly. But they are NOT Christians! I know very well what they believe and MUST believe. They are very sincere, but they are sincerely WRONG.

I guess you are entitled to your opinion, although it certainly seems to me that you are out to bash Catholics. Why not focus on our similarities - what we believe in common - rather than attack Catholics and say they are not Christian. Saying a Catholic is not Christian is an insult and an attack whether or not you think it is.

Why do we Baptists get so worked up about Catholics? This is the most I've seen posted since the divorce thread

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I guess you are entitled to your opinion, although it certainly seems to me that you are out to bash Catholics. Why not focus on our similarities - what we believe in common - rather than attack Catholics and say they are not Christian.

Would you say the same about Mormons? I'm curious, what do you think the reason for the Reformation was?

Saying a Catholic is not Christian is an insult and an attack whether or not you think it is.

What if it's true? Out of curiousity, do you believe that it's insulting for them to pronouce us anathema, say that our churches are not legitimate, or that we cannot be saved outside of the Catholic Church?

 

[Jon-Marc]

So, are they going to write a whole new Bible with all their false doctrine in it? They have enough unscriptural and false beliefs to fill a good sized book.

The Catholic Church has proclaimed five Dogmas about Virgin Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ:
1- Mary Mother of God, 431.
2- Mary always Virgin, before the birth of Jesus, during the birth, and after the birth of Jesus, 649.
3- Mary Immaculate: On December 8, 1854, Pope Pius IX issued the bull Ineffabilis Deus, which proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary, "preserved free from all guilt of original sin".
4- The Assumption of Mary, on November 1, 1950, when Pope Pius XII stated that Mary was "taken up body and soul into heaven," and "exalted as Queen of the Universe."
5- A fifth dogma is "Mother of the Church", proclaimed by Paul VI, Second Vatican Council, Nov. 21, 1964

6- Lately, the Pope is being urged to proclaim Mary with another three titles, with three dogmas:
- The Co-redeemer or Co-redemptrix,
- The Mediatrix, or Mediator of all graces,
- The Advocate for the people of God, Intercessor, Helper, Benefactress.

The Maternal Mediation of Mary is under its three essential aspects of Co-Redeemer ("the Mother Suffering"), Mediator("the Mother Nourishing"), and Advocate ("the Mother Interceding")... so, these three dogmas are interrelated and may be it is only one, because the roles of a mother, as heart of the family, are multiform but the truth of her motherhood is singular, only one!.

This last triple dogma would be the climax of the Age of Mary, and like all dogmas is right now highly debated within the Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox. In fact, the reason of any dogma proclaimed by the Church is to clarify and assert the truth on any important biblical issue when it is being debated with controversies among the faithful... this was the case of the declaration by the Church of the dogmas of the Trinity, the Divinity of Jesus, the Divinity of the Person of the Holy Spirit... all the dogmas declared were under high controversy at the time of their proclamation!.

Once the dogma is pronounced, all the doubts end, at least for the faithful of the Catholic Church.




THAT IS HERESY!

 

[Steven2006]

Out of curiousity, do you believe that it's insulting for them to pronouce us anathema, say that our churches are not legitimate, or that we cannot be saved outside of the Catholic Church?

I am trying to understand your point. Are you suggesting that if someone insults you that you should then, or it would be OK to insult them back?

Secondly while the RCC does take that position, while being around probably thousands of catholics in my lifetime I have never once had one of them ever say this to me. I have however had many comment that we were both Christians.

But to answer your question, if someone did tell me I was going to hell because because of my church membership I wouldn't even take them serious and think them a fool. Now if they wanted to talk about our different beliefs and why we believe such, I would engage them, share and if necessary defend the Gospel. By the way, this I have done with catholics, and I find they have a much more open mind as I explain scripture than if I had first already judged and declared them hell bound.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I am trying to understand your point. Are you suggesting that if someone insults you that you should then, or it would be OK to insult them back?

First, this is a strawman.

Second, no. I'm just asking why the double standard.

 

[Steven2006]

First, this is a strawman.

I don't think it is, I was truly trying to understand the point you were trying to make?

Second, no. I'm just asking why the double standard.

While I have witnessed countless of baptist doing this, again I have never witness even one catholic doing so. Again I am not talking about the RCC's position, but individuals on a personal level.

 

[Baptist4life]

Again, I'm shocked that people on a BAPTIST board are defending the RCC! You guys are apparently ignorant of the doctrines (catechism) of the RCC. The RCC is about as un-Christian as anything I can think of! As a matter of fact, it makes a mockery of Christianity.

 

[Johnv]

So much for civil discussion. I suspect that anyone who disagrees with you will be considered by you to be a compromiser of scripture.

 

[kyredneck]

...think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham......

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Again, I'm shocked that people on a BAPTIST board are defending the RCC! You guys are apparently ignorant of the doctrines (catechism) of the RCC.

No, the tragic thing is that they're not ignorant. They know exactly what Catholicism teaches and they just don't care.

 

[ashleysdad]

But who does the Mormon put his faith in? Not the Jesus Christ of the Scriptures. However the Catholic does. Big difference.

While this may be true of some Catholics on an individual level. It is certainly not true of the Catholic Church as a whole. The Catholic Church as a whole teaches a salvation that is entirely based on works and baptism. The Bible teaches salvation based on grace through faith alone and repeatedly states that works cannot save a person. This is where the Catholic church has its error. They believe that due to the death of Christ they can now work for salvation. I am not saying that all individual catholics believe this (many are not sure what they believe) but this is definitely true of the catholic church as a whole and is what their official doctrine is. Just in case anyone is wondering I am not basing this on hearsay but am basing it on speaking with two different priests as well as my dads very devout catholic family. Either the Catholic church is wrong in their teaching of salvation or Paul was wrong when he wrote the book of Romans, both viewpoints cannot be correct. A site that I found that goes into a lot of detail on what the catholic church teaches is catholic answers.com. Ironically there is a message board very similar to this. They also have an apologetics section where you can click on various topics and it will tell you what the catholic church teaches about that topic. Again, not slamming individual catholics, but as a whole the catholic church is a heretical body that teaches a false gospel.

 

[Zenas]

Nothing in your quote suggest that they loose salvation if they don't attend. It seems to say they aren't guaranteed it either. I'll look at the referrence in the CCC.

It is a mortal sin to deliberately skip mass on a holy day of obligation. Those who die before repenting of mortal sin go to hell. I'm about 99% sure that this is their belief.

 

[Baptist4life]

It is a mortal sin to deliberately skip mass on a holy day of obligation. Those who die before repenting of mortal sin go to hell. I'm about 99% sure that this is their belief.

After spending 28 years with an aunt-in-law who's a nun, and a uncle-in-law who's a priest, I'm 100% sure! :tear:

 

[JohnDeereFan]

It is a mortal sin to deliberately skip mass on a holy day of obligation.

Correct. Why do they think they call it an obligation?

Those who die before repenting of mortal sin go to hell. I'm about 99% sure that this is their belief.

And you would be 100% correct.

 

[Baptist4life]

Are you serious?