Another question for Catholics...

[annsni]

BTW, I love to attend infant dedications. You would be amazed at how many similarities there are to the baptismal rite!

There are and I honestly see infant baptism as a dedication. Many protestant churches that practice infant baptism sees it as the same thing - not a ceremony to bestow a particular grace on someone but a dedication.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: How can that be if the child has not made that choice?

HP: Are you seriously going to inject some nonsense about choices into a discussion concerning salvatiuon? It is not by the will of man Ann, remember?

Possibly the parents are just acknowledging the predestination of the child to salvation by God, and as such are just agreeing with Him.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: not a ceremony to bestow a particular grace on someone but a dedication.

HP: What in the world are you talking about? Is there no grace of God bestowed on an infant in a Christian home, dedicated and or baptized with a commitment of all those present to pray for and nurture that infant in the ways of the Lord? Are we even on the same planet? Sometimes I wonder.

Would we have to consider an infant born in a heathen hut next door to a witchdoctor in order to see God's grace being poured out via the parents and the church in infant baptism/dedication, whichever it might be? Not by some ritual itself,(although ritual to one extent or another is clearly involved) but by honest hearts invoking God to work in the life of that infant.

Consider the privileges the infant in the Church setting will receive as opposed to some heathen somewhere! If it was not for God's grace being poured out upon me as a child by God via my parents and church, where in the world would I be? Thank God for parents and a church that would dedicate themselves to my godly upbringing! If that is not the grace of God being bestowed upon me, what could possibly be grace?

I can almost see a 'vision' (hello DHK:wavey of angels attending stroking the brow of the infant proclaiming the marvelous grace God He is bestowing and will bestow as a direct consequence of that act of dedication and promise to train that baby up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

It is Gods grace being bestowed upon us simply to be born in a nation that has a heritage of honoring the Lord. Yes, many still do honor the Lord in our great nation.

Another topic could well be the grace God pours out on a marriage that invokes vows to serve the Lord and each other, and yes, we should not overlook God's grace invoked in taking communion either.

While we are on the topic, is not God's grace poured out on us many times simply by the attendance together as believers?

This is amost interesting discussion indeed. :thumbsup:

 

[annsni]

HP: What in the world are you talking about? Is there no grace of God bestowed on an infant in a Christian home, dedicated and or baptized with a commitment of all those present to pray for and nurture that infant in the ways of the Lord? Are we even on the same planet? Sometimes I wonder.

I'm speaking in the salvation sense. Baptism does not confer salvation.

 

[annsni]

HP: Are you seriously going to inject some nonsense about choices into a discussion concerning salvatiuon? It is not by the will of man Ann, remember?

Possibly the parents are just acknowledging the predestination of the child to salvation by God, and as such are just agreeing with Him.

God quickens the heart - man makes the choice to follow Christ. I don't see what the issue is.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: "I don't see what the issue is.

HP: May God grant you light.

 

[annsni]

HP: May God grant you light.

He has already. Amen.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Then you should be able to discern the issue at hand. :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

HP: Christ took upon Himself the very nature of man, the very seed of Abraham. No man is born sinful, and neither are we as men born Divine. We are born neither holy nor righteous, but rather born with the capacity for either. All men other than Christ have sinned upon coming to the age of accountability. He alone is without sin.

Sounds like New England Theology. Where did you learn it?
You said:
"All men other than Christ have sinned upon coming to the age of accountability."

Can you provide Scriptural support for this statement?
Where do you find "age of accountability" in the Bible? There is no such expression, let alone even the concept. Many of us believe in the concept, but that is only out of our personal theology, not because it is dogmatically taught in Scripture.
As I have already mentioned:
Nowhere in Scripture does it say all infants will go to heaven.
Nowhere in Scripture does it say all infants will go to hell.
Nowhere in Scripture does it tell of an age of accountability.

What the Bible does teach is: All men have sinned; are sinners; and have a sin nature. They have had that sin nature from birth.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

All have sinned; all are sinners. It is appointed unto men (mankind) once to die, and then the judgment. It is Christ that has the keys of hell and death. He appoints that time of death--whether it be for an infant or for an adult. God is sovereign. Those keys are in His hands. It is not up to you to appoint the future destiny to either infants or adults. Their destiny is in the hands of God.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

From the Scriptures DHK, in the same place you claim you have learned everything you espouse. :thumbsup:

 

[BobRyan]

The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation" - Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos

"Outside of the Church, nobody can hope for life or salvation unless he is excused through ignorance beyond his control." - Pope Pius IX, Singulari Quidem

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the "eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church." - 11th Session of the Council of Florence, under Pope Eugene IV

What do you think of the following quotes:

Do you agree with these three "infallible" popes and the Council of Florence that non-Catholics cannot be saved?

And how about the infallible command in RCC Canon law in Lateran IV - commanding that all rulers and authorities under Catholic power "exterminate jews and heretics"??

Another "infallible statement"??

Recall that in the year 2000 Pope John Paul issued an apology that did not even once recant, renounce or reject the Lateran IV call for "extermination". They cannot admit to error in canon law and still make those claims about "infallability" of the magesterium.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

There are and I honestly see infant baptism as a dedication. Many protestant churches that practice infant baptism sees it as the same thing - not a ceremony to bestow a particular grace on someone but a dedication.

1. In cases where infant baptism is "in fact" nothing more than "baby dedication" -- the one being baptized is obligated at some point to engage in actual BIBLE Baptism - full water baptism of the believer.

2. In cases where infant baptism "seeks air cover" under the guise "baby dedication" but in fact it is REALLY the same old RCC infant baptism that marks the soul and establishes the Baby as a saved saint -- there is NO requirement in those churches for the person who was baptized as an infant to later enter into actual Bible-based "believers baptism" - for in those churches the Bible has been replaced by the same man-made-tradition that actuated the RCC practice of the same.

That is the not-so-subtle "little hint" that everyone has available to them when trying to sort this out.

Lori is right in this regard. The SAME RCC practice IS being had in non-RCC churches today.

in Christ,

bob

 

[Johnv]

Not so. Presbyterian and Reformed churches practice infant baptism regularly, and do not believe that the baptism is regenerative in any way.

 

[BobRyan]

I getting ready for a barrage from both the pro-infant baptism poster and the anti-infant baptism poster.

I assume, you believe in an age of 'accountability' at which point a person decides if he/she chooses to accept Christ as Savior and Lord. He/she professes his/her faith and consequently in following the Lords command is then baptized. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Catholics, Lutheran, Anglicans, Orthodox Catholics, etc. believe in a covenantal relationship between that child and God. Similar in some respects to circumcision in adult male babies. The child is baptized and (non-speaking) the answers are given in his/her behalf by the parents and others in attendance.

Q: Do you renounces Satan and all the spiritual forces of wickendness that rebel agains Gd?
A: I renounce them

Q: Do you renounce all sinful desires that draws you from the Love of God
A: I renounce them

Q: Do you turn to Jesus Christ and and accept Him as your Savior
A: I do

Lori - you are right. Those various confessions are essentially in lock step agreement with the RCC in that regard.


Parenthetical notes “mine”.

Thomas Bokenkotter's "A Concise History of the Catholic Church" pg 49

"at first the Christian presbyter or elder avoided any resemblance to the pagan or Jewish priests and in fact even deliberately refused to be called a priest.
He saw his primary function (instead) to be the ministry of the word...but the image of the Christian presbyter gradually took on a sacral character.

This sacralization of the clergy was brought about by various developments...the Old Testament priesthood was seen as a model for the NT priesthood (gradually). The more elaborate liturgy of the post-Constantine era, with it's features borrowed from paganism, enhanced the image of the minister as a sacred personage. The ministry of the word diminished in importance when infant baptism became (evolved to become?) the rule, for infants could not be preached to...

Before Constantine the whole church was considered the realm of the sacred as opposed to the profane world outside; after Constantine and the breakdown of the separation between church and the world, the polarity between sacred and profane was transformed into one between sacred clergy and profane laity"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Not so. Presbyterian and Reformed churches practice infant baptism regularly, and do not believe that the baptism is regenerative in any way.

So then those churches "require" that anyone who was baptized as an infant - must later engage in Biblical full water baptism as a believing adult according to the Romans 10 and Acts 2 model? (Or at the very least - be unbiblically "sprinkled" as an adult once they profess Christ as Savior?)

so then those churches do NOT consider that their act of infant baptism has in any way benefitted that infant's soul should the infant die before reaching an age where they can choose Christ?

Do you have a quote for that? Some official document by one of the Presbyterian divisions?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[annsni]

1. In cases where infant baptism is "in fact" nothing more than "baby dedication" -- the one being baptized is obligated at some point to engage in actual BIBLE Baptism - full water baptism of the believer.

Yep - That's how we practiced it in our Presbyterian church when we attended there.

 

[billwald]

Baptism qualifies the person for membership in the local Christian community. A person who is baptized as an infant must later "confirm" his baptism as an adult.

Christian Baptism and membership in a Christian Church qualify a person to participate in the sacrament of communion.

This is true in the Christian Reformed Church.

 

[Johnv]

So then those churches "require" that anyone who was baptized as an infant - must later engage in Biblical full water baptism as a believing adult according to the Romans 10 and Acts 2 model?

No. Reformed churches, including PCA, PC-USA, CRC, and RCA, generally don't require a believer's baptism as a prerequisite for church membership. Membership is conferred through affirmation. An adult who has never been baptized will affirm his faith through baptism. An adult who was baptized as a believer prior, or was baptized as an infant, affirms his faith upon becoming a member without being rebaptized (unless s/he wishes to).

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
1. In cases where infant baptism is "in fact" nothing more than "baby dedication" -- the one being baptized is obligated at some point to engage in actual BIBLE Baptism - full water baptism of the believer.

Yep - That's how we practiced it in our Presbyterian church when we attended there.

So Presbyterians use a full water baptismal font - and only accept members into fellowship via full water baptism - of the believer, not counting that infant baptism has any affect at all on the infant?

That is a new one on me - I have to admit.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
So then those churches "require" that anyone who was baptized as an infant - must later engage in Biblical full water baptism as a believing adult according to the Romans 10 and Acts 2 model?

No. Reformed churches, including PCA, PC-USA, CRC, and RCA, generally don't require a believer's baptism as a prerequisite for church membership. Membership is conferred through affirmation.

That is what I would have said too before reading Annsni's comment -- maybe some individual Presbyterian congregations choose the Baptist model instead?? Not sure what to make of that.

An adult who has never been baptized will affirm his faith through baptism. An adult who was baptized as a believer prior, or was baptized as an infant, affirms his faith upon becoming a member without being rebaptized (unless s/he wishes to).

Thus the infant baptism, sprinkling etc is deemd to REPLACE the biblical method - and is not simply an "added baby dedication" that still leaves the individual neeind actual water baptism whenever they actually decide to be a Christian.

in Christ,

Bob