Foreknow

[percho]

Paul was going down the road not believing whatever it was he was suppose to be believing then Jesus (for his own purpose) called him. IT was predetermined by God that he was going to use Paul, same with Jeremiah and all who have been called by God (for his own purpose). It has nothing to do with what God knows. IMHO. In my post above I showed the only people God said that he knew were the whole family of Israel ( House of Judah and House of Israel) He brought out of Egypt. A flock of sheep divided into two folds. If these were the only ones God knew then they were the only ones He could foreknow. Compare Joel 2:32 With Acts 15:17 In Joel the remmant whom the Lord shall call are the same as upon whom my name is called in Acts. Why? (for his own purpose} Acts, that the residue of men might seek:
Joel, whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD. When does this happen?
In Acts 15:16 it is states that the LORD will return and set up the throne of David. In Joel it says the deliverence will come from mount Zion (the city of
David) In Joel it says And it shall come to pass. In Acts it says after this. After what?? The calling out of the nations a people for the name of Go

They are not called to bring some to heaven and to send others to hell. They are called to rule and teach with Jesus. Notice in both passages above all who call and the residue of men seek both the Lord AND thoes who the LORD has called.

 

[Winman]

Paul was going down the road not believing whatever it was he was suppose to be believing then Jesus (for his own purpose) called him. IT was predetermined by God that he was going to use Paul, same with Jeremiah and all who have been called by God (for his own purpose). It has nothing to do with what God knows. IMHO. In my post above I showed the only people God said that he knew were the whole family of Israel ( House of Judah and House of Israel) He brought out of Egypt. A flock of sheep divided into two folds. If these were the only ones God knew then they were the only ones He could foreknow. Compare Joel 2:32 With Acts 15:17 In Joel the remmant whom the Lord shall call are the same as upon whom my name is called in Acts. Why? (for his own purpose} Acts, that the residue of men might seek:
Joel, whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD. When does this happen?
In Acts 15:16 it is states that the LORD will return and set up the throne of David. In Joel it says the deliverence will come from mount Zion (the city of
David) In Joel it says And it shall come to pass. In Acts it says after this. After what?? The calling out of the nations a people for the name of God.

Well, that's all speculation on your part. The scriptures say God does know. Look what he said to Moses.

Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Look what the Lord said to Jeremiah.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Now, how could Jeremiah have a relationship with God before he was formed? This would argue that somehow we existed before we were conceived in our mother's womb.

But if God can see through time who will believe, then he can choose these persons for service. Notice God said to Moses "for thou hast found grace in my sight"

Cals define grace as "unmerited" favor, and that is true, but grace is not unconditional. A person must have faith in God before God shows them grace. But faith is not a work.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Grace is favor. It means God is pleased with you. God is never pleased with anyone unless that person has faith in God. Moses had left Egypt when he was 40 years old. God appeared to him when he was 80. But Moses left Egypt because of his faith in God.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

It was 40 years after leaving Egypt that God spoke to Moses and said he had found grace in his sight and God knew his name.

The scriptures show we have access to God's grace through faith, not the other way around as Calvinism teaches.

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

But going back, if God's foreknowledge means we have some sort of intimate relationship with God, you are arguing that we existed before we were born. There is not one word of scripture to support this. The only other alternative to this is that God knows beforehand who will believe.

So, do you believe we existed before the foundation of the world?

 

[jcjordan]

Grace is favor. It means God is pleased with you. God is never pleased with anyone unless that person has faith in God.

 

[jcjordan]

Grace is favor. It means God is pleased with you. God is never pleased with anyone unless that person has faith in God.

So, it is merited favor. You get grace because of something you have or do. Interesting. I thought this was called "reward" not grace.

 

[jcjordan]

ok...my last two posts are all messed up.

 

[Johnv]

Thanks Allan. You nailed it. :thumbsup:

Except that you're not blasting all doctrines that are manmade to some extent or another. You're being selective in doing so.
Do you adhere to Arminiamism? If so, your doctrine is equally as guilty as Calvinism.

Additionally, since there is scriptural support for Calvinism, and since it's not a core essential of scripture, this falls to the issue of personal liberty. You do know what scriptural liberty is, don't you?

 

[Winman]

So, it is merited favor. You get grace because of something you have or do. Interesting. I thought this was called "reward" not grace.

Well, what does Heb 11:6 say?

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

The scriptures say God is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him. I didn't say that, God did.

Jesus told people to seek God.

Matt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Deut 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.

Psa 69:32 The humble shall see this, and be glad: and your heart shall live that seek God.

The Lord absolutely promises to reward those who sincerely seek him.

What Cals cannot grasp is that faith is not a work. You could be the worst sinner on earth, yet you can have faith in God. That gives God glory, not you. The thief on the cross is an example of this.

Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

We see here that one thief did not repent. He did not see himself as a sinner. On the other hand, the other thief confessed he was a great sinner and that his punishment was just. And he also believed Jesus to be the Son of God and sinless. He did not ask Jesus to save him, he did not believe himself worthy to be saved. He just asked for a little mercy from Jesus, that Jesus would remember him when he came into his kingdom. But look how wonderful Jesus was, he showed him great mercy and forgave all his sins. The thief had a little faith, he believed Jesus merciful enough to remember his name. But he received great mercy and salvation for his faith in Jesus.

Having faith in Jesus gives glory to him. It is not saying anything good about ourselves, it is saying good about him. It is not a work.

 

[jcjordan]

What Cals cannot grasp is that faith is not a work.

Why can't they grasp it?

 

[percho]

Where does faith come from? Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Is this a statement of a natural occurence? Something we can muster up? Or is it supernatural? A gift from God? A close reading of Gal. 3 it appears that Christ himself is Faith. God knows everything. I think the foreknow in Rom. 8 is about what God is doing not about what he knows. The parallel I showed from Joel and Acts can be seen in many places in the bible. Another is Ezek. 37 the two sticks and John 10:16 not of this fold (House of Judah) becoming one flock (not one fold as in KJV) with one shepherd. See Robertson's Word Pictures on John 10:16 as to fold/flock and what flock
means.

 

[webdog]

So, it is merited favor. You get grace because of something you have or do. Interesting. I thought this was called "reward" not grace.

If it pleases God to give salvation to those who He has decided to conditionally, it is still unmerited favor. At any rate, I'm sure even you believe one must have faith in order to be saved, so your dilemma remains.

 

[webdog]

Where does faith come from? Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. Is this a statement of a natural occurence? Something we can muster up? Or is it supernatural? A gift from God? A close reading of Gal. 3 it appears that Christ himself is Faith. God knows everything. I think the foreknow in Rom. 8 is about what God is doing not about what he knows. The parallel I showed from Joel and Acts can be seen in many places in the bible. Another is Ezek. 37 the two sticks and John 10:16 not of this fold (House of Judah) becoming one flock (not one fold as in KJV) with one shepherd. See Robertson's Word Pictures on John 10:16 as to fold/flock and what flock
means.

Since every human alive exhibits faith of some sort every day, it is a human trait. Now, all faith doesn't save, but it is the object of one's faith that saves. There is no scriptural support for some other supernatural saving faith given to a select group of individuals.

 

[Rippon]

If it pleases God to give salvation to those who He has decided to conditionally,...

Correction : It pleases the Lord to bestow salvation upon those He has chosen unconditionally before the foundation of the world. That's unconditional election.

 

[webdog]

Correction : It pleases the Lord to bestow salvation upon those He has chosen unconditionally before the foundation of the world. That's unconditional election.

I know what I said. I wasn't speaking of unconditional election (a fallacy) but unmerited favor (grace).

Now back to the regularly scheduled program...

 

[jcjordan]

If it pleases God to give salvation to those who He has decided to conditionally, it is still unmerited favor.

This makes as much sense as cheering for the Cleveland Browns.

 

[webdog]

This makes as much sense as cheering for the Cleveland Browns.

Browns...maybe...but why the statement? When you receive a gift does reaching out and accepting it mean the gift is a reward for your efforts? That is what makes no sense. It still remains an act of grace and completely unmerited.

I have more optimism cheering for the Browns recently, btw

 

[jcjordan]

Browns...maybe...but why the statement? When you receive a gift does reaching out and accepting it mean the gift is a reward for your efforts? That is what makes no sense. It still remains an act of grace and completely unmerited.

I have more optimism cheering for the Browns recently, btw

I'm glad you could tell I was being light-hearted with the Browns statement since I forgot to put a smiley.

On with the discussion though, this is not an accurate analogy. This all really has a basis in total depravity. If you can't come to terms with what I see is the biblical view of man's fallen state and it's consequences, we are just going to be talking right past each other.

 

[OldRegular]

Well, that's all speculation on your part. The scriptures say God does know. Look what he said to Moses.

Exo 33:17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

Look what the Lord said to Jeremiah.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Just shows that GOD knew those HE elected to Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world.

 

[percho]

So we muster up some kind of belief/faith in an object that being The Christ and then he saves us.Paul was going down the road not believing that Jesus was the Christ and killing and or putting in prison thoes that did, Jesus struck him blind, after three days of thinking it over he developed faith Jesus removed the scales from his eyes he received the Holy Spirit and began preaching that Jesus is the Christ.

Once again it isn't about if he is saving some and not others but the manner he is bringing about what he is doing by calling some for service.


Back to my post above. Why the story about the two sticks and/or folds.

Ezek 37:28 That the heathen ie whosoever will call ie that the residue of men

 

[webdog]

So we muster up some kind of belief/faith in an object that being The Christ and then he saves us.Paul was going down the road not believing that Jesus was the Christ and killing and or putting in prison thoes that did, Jesus struck him blind, after three days of thinking it over he developed faith Jesus removed the scales from his eyes he received the Holy Spirit and began preaching that Jesus is the Christ.

Once again it isn't about if he is saving some and not others but the manner he is bringing about what he is doing by calling some for service.


Back to my post above. Why the story about the two sticks and/or folds.

Ezek 37:28 That the heathen ie whosoever will call ie that the residue of men

Why do you use one isolated incident that is NOT the norm to prove your point? Does everyone come to Christ by having Jesus appear to them on a road? Nobody is debating that God elects people for His work.

Do you think Paul had a choice after encountering Christ to obey or not? Jonah was told by God to do something as well. Why did one obey and disobey?

 

[Amy.G]

Except that you're not blasting all doctrines that are manmade to some extent or another. You're being selective in doing so.
Do you adhere to Arminiamism? If so, your doctrine is equally as guilty as Calvinism.

No. I do not adhere to Arminianism. So I am not guilty of anything. I have never even seen a thread on Arminianism since I joined this board 3 1/2 years ago. But if one appears, you can bet I will post against it's man made doctrines as well.
And yes, I have blasted other doctrines that have come to this board, such as Millennial Exclusion and Catholocism. I really don't know what you're problem with me is.

Additionally, since there is scriptural support for Calvinism, and since it's not a core essential of scripture, this falls to the issue of personal liberty. You do know what scriptural liberty is, don't you?

There is scriptural support for parts of Calvinism, but if you don't hold to all 5 points, then you aren't a Calvinist now are you?

As far as personal liberty goes, I have liberty to defend the faith, not man made doctrines. I do not have liberty to do that.


This is the last time I will speak to you about this. If you do not like my opinions, then don't read them.