Foreknow

[Skandelon]

We agree that :
The wonder of God's mercy and grace is not that He doesn't save everyone; it is that He even saves anyone

This is the very essense of non-cal theology. I praise God that you are starting to come around However, God is not in any way morally obligated to save anyone because we deserve it. Again this is pure Non-Cal theology.

Yet He 'has' obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come/believe not because they deserve it but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world to be applied only by/through faith.

:applause::applause:
Can you have that statement etched somewhere in stone and placed in a location that everyone will see it every day? :thumbsup:

 

[Robert Snow]

AresMan,

Excellent post. Thank you. The last sentence encapsulates the wonder of God's Sovereign Grace--that's why it's beautiful and not monstrous.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Isn't it strange that the only ones who see this Calvinistic doctrine as wonderful are the ones who are the privileged, the elect. I have yet to hear from a Calvinist who God has decided not to elect praise this fact.

 

[Winman]

Isn't it strange that the only ones who see this Calvinistic doctrine as wonderful are the ones who are the privileged, the elect. I have yet to hear from a Calvinist who God has decided not to elect praise this fact.

What I want to know is how a person knows for a certainty that they are the elect.

To all you Cals and DoGs, how do you know for certain you are the elect?

 

[The Archangel]

Isn't it strange that the only ones who see this Calvinistic doctrine as wonderful are the ones who are the privileged, the elect. I have yet to hear from a Calvinist who God has decided not to elect praise this fact.

Robert,

You are missing the point and are, perhaps, painting a type of caricature of us Calvinists.

You are perhaps suggesting that we think ourselves "privileged" and that is why we view the doctrine as wonderful. That is certainly not the point. What we view as wonderful is that God has condescended to save people when He is under no obligation to do so, outside of His decision to love humanity. For a Christian to call himself or herself "privileged" is to entirely miss the point of salvation. The most ardent Calvinists I know are the ones who marvel the most at why God would saved them.

Now, as far as praising God for what He does and how He does it--we all should do that.

As for me, I don't like the theological position that I hold. I am a very reluctant Calvinist. Once I learned to read the Bible in context, read Greek, diagram in Greek, etc. it became impossible to deny. Having been brought up a dyed-in-the-wool Arminian I reacted strongly against Calvinism. In the end, the scripture was too convincing.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[OldRegular]

What I want to know is how a person knows for a certainty that they are the elect.

To all you Cals and DoGs, how do you know for certain you are the elect?

The same way you know you are saved! If you are truly a Child of GOD then you were chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. [Ephesians 1 3-6]

 

[Skandelon]

As for me, I don't like the theological position that I hold. I am a very reluctant Calvinist. Once I learned to read the Bible in context, read Greek, diagram in Greek, etc. it became impossible to deny. Having been brought up a dyed-in-the-wool Arminian I reacted strongly against Calvinism. In the end, the scripture was too convincing.

Blessings,

The Archangel

I felt the exact same way for many years. Not until I came to fully understand the historical context of Israel's judicial hardening, the reserving of the remnant out of Israel and the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the vine could I understand how there could be any other view than Calvinism.

I beseech you my brother, objectively study these doctrines and understand them fully because there is another viable and clear interpretation that will bring harmony to all these points of scripture...and I assure you it is not found in Calvinism.

 

[Winman]

The same way you know you are saved! If you are truly a Child of GOD then you were chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. [Ephesians 1 3-6]

Nope, that is not how I know. I have explained several times how I know.

How about answering the question, how do you know for a certainty that you are elect?

Saying you are elect because you are the chosen is circular reasoning. That is not an answer.

 

[OldRegular]

Yet He 'has' obligated Himself, both morally and judicially, to save whosoever will come/believe not because they deserve it but because He sent forth His Son to be a propitiation for sins of whole world to be applied only by/through faith.

I don't suppose that anyone who believes the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace would deny that whosever will come to Jesus Christ for Salvation will be saved. In fact some of the final words recorded in Scripture [Revelation 22:17] present the invitation:

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

However, the "whosoevers" are those chosen by GOD unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. [Ephesians 1 3-6] It is only these that GOD has obligated HIMSELF to save.

 

[Allan]

I don't suppose that anyone who believes the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace would deny that whosever will come to Jesus Christ for Salvation will be saved. In fact some of the final words recorded in Scripture [Revelation 22:17] present the invitation:

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

However, the "whosoevers" are those chosen by GOD unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. [Ephesians 1 3-6] It is only these that GOD has obligated HIMSELF to save.

And I don't suppose that anyone who believes in either the Arminian and or the Non-Cal position would deny that the "whosoevers" are those chosen by GOD unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. [Ephesians 1 3-6] It is only these that GOD has obligated HIMSELF to save.

As I was saying, He isn't obligated to save those who will not believe even though He has extended that proposition toward all mankind.

 

[Skandelon]

I don't suppose that anyone who believes the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace would deny that whosever will come to Jesus Christ for Salvation will be saved. In fact some of the final words recorded in Scripture [Revelation 22:17] present the invitation:

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

However, the "whosoevers" are those chosen by GOD unto Salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. [Ephesians 1 3-6] It is only these that GOD has obligated HIMSELF to save.

Thus, the Calvinistic system introduces the most disingenuous invitation known to man.

Imagine a Governer standing in front of a bunch of prison inmates knowing full well that 95% of them couldn't understand any english and saying without any interpretation, "If you will come to me and apologize for your crime you will be set free, otherwise you will be tortured for the rest of your life in this prison." All the while making statements like, "I don't want any one to be tortured, but all to be set free from this prison," and "I love the prisoners and have provided pardon for their crimes."

Is that a genuine invitation? Of course it isn't.

And imagine further that some "Arminian" reporters questioned the Governor about this offer asking, "Why did you make it appear that you were inviting everyone to respond while only revealing the call to the english speaking inmates?" Were you trying to appear to be more merciful than you are? Were you trying to make it seem like it was the inmates fault for not knowing english? They were born not knowing english, why would you not translate your call into their language if indeed the call was meant for all of them?

 

[BaptistBob]

As for me, I don't like the theological position that I hold. I am a very reluctant Calvinist. Once I learned to read the Bible in context, read Greek, diagram in Greek, etc. it became impossible to deny. Having been brought up a dyed-in-the-wool Arminian I reacted strongly against Calvinism. In the end, the scripture was too convincing.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Speaking as a former Calvinist, educated and switched to non-Calvinism while studying the bible in context (including socio-rhetorical and socio-cultural context) at the feet of some of the most famous living Calvinists, reading Greek, diagraming in Greek, etc. it became impossible to deny that Cavlinism is false. In the end, the Scripture was too convincing.

 

[zrs6v4]

Nope, that is not how I know. I have explained several times how I know.

How about answering the question, how do you know for a certainty that you are elect?

Saying you are elect because you are the chosen is circular reasoning. That is not an answer.

It is biblical to say that we need to make our calling and election sure. We do this by prayer and spending time in Scripture (with God), without God showing us it is impossible. On the other hand there are many deceived who think they are elect but arent and will not know until the meet Christ. That is a humbling thing for all of us.

so there are 4 types of people

1. Those who think they are saved and are
2. Those who think they are saved and are not
3. Those who dont think they are saved and are
4. Those who dont think they are saved and are not

 

[The Archangel]

I felt the exact same way for many years. Not until I came to fully understand the historical context of Israel's judicial hardening, the reserving of the remnant out of Israel and the ingrafting of the Gentiles into the vine could I understand how there could be any other view than Calvinism.

I beseech you my brother, objectively study these doctrines and understand them fully because there is another viable and clear interpretation that will bring harmony to all these points of scripture...and I assure you it is not found in Calvinism.

I appreciate the encouragement. But, I have studied them--objectively--and the scriptural support, in the end, is too convincing.

All other systems, to some extent, seek to make God the responder to man's initiating action. This, of course, is not the Biblical model. The Bible always presents God as the initiator and man as the responder. The Doctrines of Grace go along with this model.

As I stated, I don't like the position I hold, but I am convinced with every fiber of my being that it is the correct position.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Amy.G]

All other systems, to some extent, seek to make God the responder to man's initiating action. This, of course, is not the Biblical model. The Bible always presents God as the initiator and man as the responder. The Doctrines of Grace go along with this model.

As I stated, I don't like the position I hold, but I am convinced with every fiber of my being that it is the correct position.

Blessings,

The Archangel

I don't know of any system that has man as the initiator. God offers salvation. He is the initiator. Man must receive the salvation offered. I don't see where man is the initiator at all.

 

[OldRegular]

Thus, the Calvinistic system introduces the most disingenuous invitation known to man.

Imagine a Governer standing in front of a bunch of prison inmates knowing full well that 95% of them couldn't understand any english and saying without any interpretation, "If you will come to me and apologize for your crime you will be set free, otherwise you will be tortured for the rest of your life in this prison." All the while making statements like, "I don't want any one to be tortured, but all to be set free from this prison," and "I love the prisoners and have provided pardon for their crimes."

Is that a genuine invitation? Of course it isn't.

And imagine further that some "Arminian" reporters questioned the Governor about this offer asking, "Why did you make it appear that you were inviting everyone to respond while only revealing the call to the english speaking inmates?" Were you trying to appear to be more merciful than you are? Were you trying to make it seem like it was the inmates fault for not knowing english? They were born not knowing english, why would you not translate your call into their language if indeed the call was meant for all of them?

The confusion of your response ranks right up there with Winman!:thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

Nope, that is not how I know. I have explained several times how I know.

It may surprise you Winman but I don't hang on to every word of your voluminous posts.

How about answering the question, how do you know for a certainty that you are elect?

Saying you are elect because you are the chosen is circular reasoning. That is not an answer.

I answered your question Winman. In case you did not understand I will post it again:

The same way you know you are saved! If you are truly a Child of GOD then you were chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. [Ephesians 1:3-6]

 

[Amy.G]

I answered your question Winman. In case you did not understand I will post it again:

The same way you know you are saved! If you are truly a Child of GOD then you were chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. [Ephesians 1:3-6]

How do you know if you were chosen?

 

[The Archangel]

I don't know of any system that has man as the initiator. God offers salvation. He is the initiator. Man must receive the salvation offered. I don't see where man is the initiator at all.

The classic Arminian position of "Conditional Grace" says that God looked through time and saw who would believe and based on that foreseen faith, he elected those certain persons.

So, in this scheme, God's actions of election are a reaction to man's act of faith that God foresees. Therefore, God is ipso facto responding to man's initiation.

I can't buy that because it turns the Biblical order of things upside-down.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Amy.G]

The classic Arminian position of "Conditional Grace" says that God looked through time and saw who would believe and based on that foreseen faith, he elected those certain persons.

So, in this scheme, God's actions of election are a reaction to man's act of faith that God foresees. Therefore, God is ipso facto responding to man's initiation.

I can't buy that because it turns the Biblical order of things upside-down.

Blessings,

The Archangel

I don't agree with the Arminian system, but since only God can offer salvation, He can be nothing but the initiator. Who cares what the Arminian system says anyway. Ignore it. What does the Bible say?

 

[canadyjd]

....As I stated, I don't like the position I hold, but I am convinced with every fiber of my being that it is the correct position.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Brother, are you ashamed of the gospel that God has given to us?

How could you not "like" the position you hold, if you believe the position you hold is the God-given truth?

You seem to be apologizing for believing God-given truth. How can that be?

peace to youraying: