Who Was Made Lower? God or Angels?

[RAdam]

Strong's says it means: to make less or inferior: in dignity; to be made less or inferior: in dignity; to decrease in authority or popularity

Thayer's says the same thing, as does Vine's.

According to the accepted meaning of the greek term, what Hebrews means is He decreased in rank, in dignity, etc. It does not design creation but a time when one decreased in rank, popularity, or dignity. The same word is used to describe what John the Baptist meant when he said, "He (Christ) must increase and I must decrease."

That is not reading into a word my own meaning, that is looking at what the phrase actually means, how it is used elsewhere in the scriptures, and looking at the context to determine what the text is telling us.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

RAdam: Strong's says it means: to make less or inferior: in dignity; to be made less or inferior: in dignity; to decrease in authority or popularity

Thayer's says the same thing, as does Vine's.

HP: So what? How does that prove that it has nothing to do with His Incarnation, and everything to do with your notion, that “He was made lower than (decreased in rank) the angels by the sufferings of death, not by incarnation.”???? I would like to know one thing, was He in reality truly a man in His Incarnation? Is man created higher or lower that the angelic realm?

 

[Marcia]

Man is made lower than the angels. See Ps. 8:
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?
5 For You have made him a little lower than the angels,
And You have crowned him with glory and honor.

Jesus, by incarnating and becoming man, was therefore lower than the angels. He gave up his glory to become man to pay for man's sins. he humbled himself, as it is says in Philippians.

He was not created when he became man - he already and always was and is. He's eternal. But he became lower than angels by incarnating in the sense of giving up his glorious position in heaven for a while.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

When God took upon Himself the 'seed of Abraham,' why not be Biblical about it and say He was in a sense made? We know there are two truths that in our finite minds will never be fully reconciled, He was God and He was man. I have no more right to take away from His humanity than I do His Deity. Both are true are they not? Humanity has not existed for ever and indeed must be made, does it not?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia, you make some excellent points in your last post by the way.:thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Man is made lower than the angels.

HP: We know full well that we are not created lower in the sense of our death for sin, so Christ being a man could it not be said of His created body and makeup that He too, like unto His brethren, was indeed created lower than the angels in the very same way all men are created lower than the angels?
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

 

[Marcia]

When God took upon Himself the 'seed of Abraham,' why not be Biblical about it and say He was in a sense made? We know there are two truths that in our finite minds will never be fully reconciled, He was God and He was man. I have no more right to take away from His humanity than I do His Deity. Both are true are they not? Humanity has not existed for ever and indeed must be made, does it not?

Who said Jesus was not God or man?

But he wasn't "made" in the sense of being "created." You're taking an English word and making it too literal. If I say I made him captain of the team or I made him the office manager, I did not create the person.

In Greek:elattousyai 1, hlattwmenon 1, hlattwsav 1 In NET:You made lower 1, become less important 1, who was made lower 1 In AV:make lower 2, decrease 1 Count:3 Definition:1) to make less or inferior: in dignity
2) to be made less or inferior: in dignity
3) to decrease in authority or popularity

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, you make some excellent points in your last post by the way.:thumbsup:

Thank you!

And of course, I totally believe Jesus was fully God and fully man.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Who said Jesus was not God or man?

HP: No one directly. I do think the tendency by some is to elevate His Deity to the negation of His humanity. Let’s be honest. The doctrine of original sin drives ones views on the nature of Christ. If man is born in sin, and Christ had no sin, the only thing left is to make Him a little less man and more of Deity. They start with taking away the very nature of humanity all men are born with when it comes to Christ. They off hand eliminate even the possibility of sin, and try to tell us that it is impossible for God to be tempted when we know full well Christ was indeed not only tempted, but in ALL points as we are. That whole system of thought goes absolutely crossgrain to Him being ‘made’ like unto His brethren and taking upon Himself the ‘seed’ of Abraham. They steal away from Him the very essence of his makeup that makes Him a faithful High Priest for all of humanity.

Marcia: But he wasn't "made" in the sense of being "created." You're taking an English word and making it too literal. If I say I made him captain of the team or I made him the office manager, I did not create the person.

HP: If we desire to get technical, no one can ‘make’ another person apart from God. Still the same we are indeed made, or formed, in the womb by the joining of man and women as granted abilities by God to do so, God creating a living soul to place within that product of human union.

If Christ was who He said He was, (and we both agree that He was) He was of the seed of Abraham, Abraham being a man. The seed was indeed implanted by the Holy Spirit but there is absolutely no indication a male seed was not utilized, nor any other source or indication it was not used. Again, only those viewing the Incarnation from the presupposition of original sin would have any problem with that. Men are indeed made in the womb, and if Christ was a man He was made in the same sense as are His brethren in the womb. Men do not fall from heaven, they are created as such in the womb. Obviously God infused Himself in some manner to that created flesh, and the how that can be still remains a mystery.

Here to me is the key in this discussion. Do not allow the things we cannot know to confuse the things we of certainty do know. We know how and where men are created, i.e., from the womb. Christ was a man, created as a man with the nature of men tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. I again place the question marks in my theology over the issue of how then He was God in the flesh as well as totally man in the flesh. God desires for us to link with His humanity and accept the unknowable, the manner in which His Divinity was linked to Him and still He remained a man on this earth. Some seem bent on linking with that which is and will remain a mystery, and reasoning from that mystery to that which we should already know, all the while holding firmly in their grip the presupposition of original sin.

What a world of confusion that one doctrine has unleashed upon the Church. Men still rule the Church and the minds of multitudes of believers from the grave. Augustine’s legacy lives on in the form of contradiction upon contradiction.