So if all of that is true, the author would then be telling us that we must hold fast our profession to the end or we won't enter heaven. I mean, he tells these people here that they need to take heed, lest they harden their hearts, and come short. He says that we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold fast our confidence stedfast unto the end.
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Jacob I loved and Esau I hated = individual election?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
It says quite a bit
What it doesn't say is I'm deemed a sinner because of Adam, I died spiritually at creation. We are dead in OUR trespasses and sins.It says quite a bit
"death exerted dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam"
"because of the one man's trespass, death exercised dominion through that one"
"Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all"
[Some extracts from Romans 5 NRSV]
Do you still wish to deny Scripture, or get on-board?
Would you like to get on board that DEATH is the topic of those passages you posted?
So basically you don't believe in eternal security.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Not really. Sin is the topic of the passage. Death is important in the passage but it is inextricably linked with sin. So, to separate them is not accurate.
Paul is making the point that all die because Adam sinned. It's inescapable.
Blessings,
The Archangel
It is saying that death spread to all men because of one man's sin. It is not saying man is created a sinner because of one man's sin, and Paul further illustrates that in chapter 7.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I'd like to know, first, what your view is. Please elaborate.
Blessings,
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
No.
That's not what it says. The text says that death spread to all men because all sinned. Sinned is an aorist verb and it means that, in some way, we sinned when Adam sinned.
Further, man was not created a sinner, this is true. However, every human after Adam and Eve were not "created," rather we were procreated. Therefore, the things present in Adam were passed on (imputed) to us.
But, Paul is not illustrating what you suggest in Romans 7. He is answering his question "Does the law sinful?" and his response is an emphatic "no." The law is not in itself sinful but it does defines what sin is and it brings it out in us. Paul himself describes being a sinner by nature.
Blessings,
The Archangel
I completely concur with "sinned" being an aorist verb, as all sinned is past tense, meaning the action was performed by the person in the past. If the ability is there to sin, it is a certainty. It is NOT saying we sinned when Adam sinned, as we are dead in our trespasses and sins. We became part of the curse when Adam sinned, and that was death spreading to all men. Christ died physically, and He was without sin, but being fully human, He was also under the curse of death.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Context, context, context.
The Hebrews passage is not talking about what you want it to say. Instead, this passage is talking about the stunning unbelief of the generation the left Egypt with Moses. And their unbelief is stunning--they saw the Red Sea parted and walked through on the dry ground with their own feet, yet they didn't believe God could do what He promised (drive the Canaanite inhabitants out of the land).
But, their balking at God's command was due to the following: Rebellion, sin, and disobedience. Was unbelief a part of it? Sure. But unbelief is the cause of rebellion, sin, and disobedience (the parallel structure shows this to be the case).
God's condemnation came on the Israelite because of their sin and disobedience--their actions brought this condemnation. Their unbelief led to their sinful action.
Likewise, we are condemned for our being sinners. The way of escape of that condemnation is believing in Christ.
John 3:18 says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."
Now you might be tempted to say we condemn ourselves because of our unbelief, but this verse shows we have a default standing of "condemned." And "condemned" is passive meaning that we are condemned, likely, by God.
Blessings,
The Archangel
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Sure I do. Saving faith is like love, if it persevere it is real, if it doesn't persevere then it wasn't real. What does this have to do with our discussion?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I wonder why that is? Because God didn't regenerate them? So, what is the point in warning these people not to repeat the mistakes of their fathers if that is not within their control?
Sure unbelief is the cause of sinful behavior, but the reason they didn't enter was because of their unbelief. Abraham believed and it was granted to him as righteousness. Was Abraham sinless? Did Abraham disobey? Sure he did. So then how did he get declared righteous? THROUGH FAITH
Yes, belief is the escape, thus unbelief is the reason one doesn't escape. It's not difficult.
I don't disagree with that. What do you suppose is the reason the default position is being "condemned?" Because we are not born believers. We are born as sinful unbelievers and the only way to escape our already condemned status is by believing. Again, this is not difficult. Don't try to read too much into it.
One more time, answer this question: Why are men condemned?
because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
First, I don't believe the "vine" is salvation, that would create a lot of problems for both of us.
The "vine" is the means to salvation, the revelation of God by which we enter covenant with God. John Gill calls the "vine" the "gospel church," and I like that term because it includes the two means God has employed to bring people into covenant with Him. So, Israel was in the vine first because they received the "special revelation" of God by which they could enter covenant with Him. Now, however, the Jews are being cut off (blinded) from the gospel revelation so as to let the Gentiles in.
Now, if you agree with this interpretation, I'll respond to you last thread before I asked this question. Let me know.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Because the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man is at work. The warning increases the condemnation (just like Tyre and Sidon will be judged more harshly than Sodom and Gomorrah because Tyre and Sidon existed in the time of Christ).
Yes, of course, Abraham was declared righteous through faith. However, your theology would have us believe that Abraham demonstrated this faith before he was called by God. The Bible is quite clear--when God called Abraham, Abraham was an idol worshiper and, as such, did not demonstrate "faith." God's calling work was seen in Abraham's life before he is declared righteous through faith.
That's not what you're arguing, though. You are neglecting why there is something to escape in the first place. We are in trouble--we are already condemned--because we are sinners.
What you are suggesting is that we don't believe and are, therefore, condemned. That's not the case. We are condemned already and if we believe we will escape that condemnation. In other words, we are not thrown into the fire for not believing, we just don't escape the flames. In this analogy, you'd have us believe we are in the frying pan awaiting to be pulled out of the pan or thrown into the fire.
See above.
Men are condemned because we are sinners. Paul talking about Adam says:
Romans 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
We are condemned because of Adam's sin...and our own (because we are, now, by nature sinners).
Blessings,
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I don't think the "Vine" is salvation, per se. I'm wondering, what problems for both of us do you see?
I don't think I would agree that the vine is the Gospel church. I certainly would not agree that there are two means to bring people into covenant with Him--in fact, I categorically reject that (if I am properly understanding what you are saying).
I see the "vine" as the people of God. I'm still studying, though. I think, though, you may be reading too much into the "vine" imagery.
By the way, which translation of the Bible are you using. I don't find "vine" in mine....so it made me curious which translation you use.
Blessings,
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Joshua 24:2 "And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods." (ESV; Emphasis mine)
Joshua 24:14-15 “Now therefore fear the Lord and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” (ESV; Emphasis mine)
Joshua 24:2 shows that Abraham was involved in that idolatry. First off, he was 70 when God called him. Secondly, it was common in his day to have "territorial gods" for each city/state. It would have been quite common for Abraham to join in the worship of the local deity.
Further the text says "...and they served other gods." The simple sentence is "Your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates and they served other gods. The naming of the fathers--Terah, Abraham, and Nahor is periphrastic, identifying the fathers. The "they" encompasses all of the fathers including Abraham (since, after all, he is mentioned by name).
Had Joshua wanted to suggest that only Terah had been an idol worshiper, the sentence would have to be constructed quite differently--to emphasize only Terah, rather than the all the fathers which includes Abraham.
Blessings,
The Archangel
So one can have faith in Christ and it not be real? Where is that verse in the bible? I see where the bible says over and over again that one who believes in Christ has everlasting life and is in a born again state. You are saying that he must perservere to the end, outrun the devil till he dies, in order for that faith to be real. Those texts don't say that. They simply say that one who believes (by faith) in Jesus Christ is born again and has everlasting life.