Jacob I loved and Esau I hated = individual election?

[The Archangel]

I agree it is not limited to inherent quality within (some sort of righteousness), but I believe there is more to it than being functional as well, as I do not believe a creation "created" spiritually separated from God can fit this image.

Explain: "I do not believe a creation "created" spiritually separated from God can fit this image."

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

Explain: "I do not believe a creation "created" spiritually separated from God can fit this image."

The Archangel

I'm not sure what you want explained If man is solely in Adam's image, they would have been created spiritually dead. I do not hold to augustinian original sin.

 

[Rippon]

I'm not sure what you want explained If man is solely in Adam's image, they would have been created spiritually dead. I do not hold to augustinian original sin.

In other words you deny Romans 5.

 

[webdog]

In other words you deny Romans 5.

In other words I deny your understanding of Romans 5.

 

[The Archangel]

I'm not sure what you want explained If man is solely in Adam's image, they would have been created spiritually dead. I do not hold to augustinian original sin.

You're getting dangerously close to defining yourself as a "P...," well, that "P" word you rail against.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

I'm not sure what you want explained If man is solely in Adam's image, they would have been created spiritually dead. I do not hold to augustinian original sin.

Explain your view of "original sin" or what resulted from Adam's sin.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

You're getting dangerously close to defining yourself as a "P...," well, that "P" word you rail against.

Blessings,

The Archangel

...not any closer to you defining yourself as RCC for holding to the virgin birth

 

[webdog]

Explain your view of "original sin" or what resulted from Adam's sin.

Blessings,

The Archangel

The result of Adam's sin was death spread to all, and mankind from that point on being tainted with sin interwoven into his dna (sin nature) making sinning a surety when able to do so. Humanity was redefined at that moment.

 

[The Archangel]

...not any closer to you defining yourself as RCC for holding to the virgin birth

The relationship between these two things is the same as the relationship between apples and Volkswagens.

The Virgin Birth is affirmed by orthodox Christians everywhere (note: Not "Orthodox" as a denomination, but orthodox as "right believing")

Pelagianism was condemned and has been condemned repeatedly as a heresy...something that has never applied to the Virgin Birth.

Further, Pelagianism was condemned because, among other things, it denied any biblically orthodox understanding of Original Sin, which is where you are precariously standing.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

The relationship between these two things is the same as the relationship between apples and Volkswagens.

The Virgin Birth is affirmed by orthodox Christians everywhere (note: Not "Orthodox" as a denomination, but orthodox as "right believing")

Pelagianism was condemned and has been condemned repeatedly as a heresy...something that has never applied to the Virgin Birth.

Further, Pelagianism was condemned because, among other things, it denied any biblically orthodox understanding of Original Sin, which is where you are precariously standing.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Augustine is not the authority on man's condition...Scripture is. If you hold to his view, I'm sure you support infant baptism as well?
Scripture as a whole (not verses cherry picked) do not support Augustines view regardless of the number of millions of believers throughout time held and continue to hold to it. I'll align myself with Scripture.

 

[The Archangel]

Augustine is not the authority on man's condition...Scripture is. If you hold to his view, I'm sure you support infant baptism as well?
Scripture as a whole (not verses cherry picked) do not support Augustines view regardless of the number of millions of believers throughout time held and continue to hold to it. I'll align myself with Scripture.

For the record, I'm not a paedobaptist.

So, you are saying, that the whole of orthodox Christians were/are wrong in agreeing with Augustine? And that you have it right?

Narcissus has company I guess.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

For the record, I'm not a paedobaptist.

So, you are saying, that the whole of orthodox Christians were/are wrong in agreeing with Augustine? And that you have it right?

Narcissus has company I guess.

Blessings,

The Archangel

I hardly think I'm the only one who believes a sinner is rightly defined as one who sins (I know of many here who agree with me), and the "whole of" Christians hold to AOS.

 

[Robert Snow]

How can anyone have an excuse to offer God at the Day of Judgment? Everyone is a sinner -- we all deserve condemnation. No one has a get-out-of-hell free-card if they claim that they didn't know etc.

There will be no excuses, only a lot of bowing and confessing.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Phil. 2:9-11

 

[Rippon]

Scripture as a whole (not verses cherry picked) do not support Augustines view regardless of the number of millions of believers throughout time held and continue to hold to it. I'll align myself with Scripture.

Except for Romans chapter 5 among other passages.

 

[webdog]

Except for Romans chapter 5 among other passages.

I didn't forget that...it doesn't support it either.

 

[The Archangel]

I didn't forget that...it doesn't support it either.

Then, what does it say?

The Archangel

 

[Skandelon]

We are judged for Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Unfortunately, this will likely be a hit-and-run post. Much to do.
Paul is clear that those who lived from Adam to Moses--though there was no Law (as in the OT Law, that's Paul's common usage)--still died.

Adam's sin was imputed to all his progeny. This is why everyone died. Let's say that Adam had a great-great grandson named, for lack of a better term, Fred. There was no Law in Fred's time, no rules to break, and, therefore, no sin to commit. Yet, Fred died in due time. If there was no sin on Fred's account, why did he die? Because Adam's sin spread to all men and all men are counted guilty before God for what Adam did.

Now, I know you Arminian-types don't like this notion of the imputation of Adam's sin. However, if you don't accept the imputation of Adam's sin and the guilt that entails, you cannot hope to accept the imputation of Christ's righteousness.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Well, some of us "Arminian-types" believe what the bible says when it speaks of Christ appeasing the wrath of God for sin. So, while we acknowledge the imputation of Adam's sin, we also acknowledge the sacrifice of atonement offered for the whole world.

Jesus said, "I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day." (Jn 12)

What condemn's mankind on the last day? Is it the imputed sin of Adam? NOPE! What does He say? The "very word which I spoke will condemn him." What is that "word?" The gospel truth!

"For I did not come to judge the world" based upon the "righteousness that comes through the law"....or Adam's imputed sin. But instead there is a "new righteousness being revealed" (Rm 3) which is not from LAW but through faith...this is what Christ has revealed as the "WORD." It is by that "NEW RIGHTEOUSNESS" that "WORD OF CHRIST" by which we are judged. If someone is condemned, he is condemned for his UNBELIEF (Rm 11:23; Heb 3 etc)

19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief!

 

[Skandelon]

I have been quite busy. Besides, I have enjoyed watching your back-and-forth with Aaron.

...till later...

Blessings,

The Archangel

Still too busy to answer the question Archangel? Let me repost it for you:

Before we go any further I think we need to clarify something. What do you think Paul means when he speaks of them being "grafted into the vine?" In other words, what does the "vine" represent in your view? That will help me understand what you are arguing here.

Let's remember the subject of this thread is Romans 9-11 and Jacob and Esau. I would like to pick up that part of the discussion again.

 

[RAdam]

People have been abusing Hebrews 3 for ages. The very first verse of that chapter tells us who the author has in mind: "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle, and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus."

He's not addressing lost Jews, he is addressing believing Jews, and he exhorts them to take heed lest they harden their hearts as their fathers did.

 

[Skandelon]

People have been abusing Hebrews 3 for ages. The very first verse of that chapter tells us who the author has in mind: "Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle, and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus."

He's not addressing lost Jews, he is addressing believing Jews, and he exhorts them to take heed lest they harden their hearts as their fathers did.

First, I used more that Hebrews 3 to prove my point that men on Judgement day are not going to be declared unrighteous on account of the LAW, but on account of the NEW RIGHTEOUSNESS which is by faith.

Second, with regard to the audience of Heb. 3, it doesn't matter if they are believers, unbeliever or the Angelic Host of Heaven. People will not enter because of unbelief. What other point could the author intend? What does the promised land represent? HEAVEN.