OldRegular
Well-Known Member
AresMan
Your posts #'s 14 & 15 are excellent. Hopefully Winman will learn something from them!
Your posts #'s 14 & 15 are excellent. Hopefully Winman will learn something from them!
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Foreknew?
- Thread starter God's_Servant
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Amy.G
It is true that we are never chosen apart from Jesus Christ since without HIS atoning death there would be no Salvation. However, we were Chosen before the foundation of the world and being so Chosen God the Holy Spirit will apply the cross-work of Jesus Christ to the elect ensuring their Salvation. Another way of presenting this is as follows:
The doctrine of the sovereignty of God in Salvation is clearly expressed in the Covenant of Grace. This Covenant, an eternal covenant, is best understood as a covenant in which the three Divine Persons in the Godhead co-operate in man’s salvation [Psalms 2:8; 40: 6-8; 59:3; Isaiah 49: 3-12; John 17:6; Hebrews 13:20; Titus 1:2] and is summarized as follows:
1. God the Father foreknew and chose a people to be His own before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].
2. God the Son agrees to humble Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, and die on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation so that none are lost [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].
3. God the Holy Spirit agrees to apply the work of the Son to those chosen by God the Father and who regenerates and effectually calls those whom God the Father has chosen unto salvation [John 6: 37, 44; Ephesians 2:1-10].
Note: The three points regarding the Covenant of Grace are not original with me. I have attempted to find the source for them in my reference literature. The closest representation I found was in a book by Richard P. Belcher, Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism but it is not the source I used. I regret using material which I cannot source. Perhaps someone may be familiar with this representation of the Covenant of Grace and can enlighten me.
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That is one of the silliest responses I have ever heard. So God had a "relationship" with us before we were even created?
It is you that reads into the verse what it does not say. It says nothing about having a personal relationship with us, it says he "knew" Jeremiah. This is speaking of God's foreknowledge which you Calvinists hate and deny. But the scriptures say we are elect according to foreknowledge.
1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
I have showed scripture many times that shows God knew from the beginning who would believe and who would believe not.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
This shows what God knew from the beginning. It shows he knew who would believe and who would not. I have scripture to support my view, you do not.
Jesus also said he knew whom he chose when he picked his twelve disciples, and he knew eleven would believe, and Judas would not.
John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
Jesus chose Judas. Judas was elect if you will accept it. He was chosen by Jesus as one of the twelve disciples because Jesus knew he would not believe, and that Judas would betray him.
And note in verse 19 that Jesus said these things had not yet happened. So this idea that God had some sort of relationship with us before the foundation of the world is nonsense. But Jesus could see down through time and saw who would believe and who would believe not and betray him.
You can ramble on all you want, I have definite scripture to support what I believe, you do not.
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You completely contradict yourself here. You actually got it right and do not even comprehend. You are correct when you point out "in behalf of Christ".
God does not elect us outside Christ. We have nothing. It is only "in Christ" that we have merit, that merit being imputed to us through Christ. It is Christ who God rewards, and because we are in Christ we are rewarded.
This is shown in the example of Mephibosheth in the OT. Mephibosheth was the son of Jonathan. David and Jonathan had made a covenant with each other.
1 Sam 20:8 Therefore thou shalt deal kindly with thy servant; for thou hast brought thy servant into a covenant of the LORD with thee: notwithstanding, if there be in me iniquity, slay me thyself; for why shouldest thou bring me to thy father?
When Jonathan was killed, David sought members of his family that he could show kindness to them for Jonathan's sake and the covenant they had with each other.
2 Sam 9:1 And David said, Is there yet any that is left of the house of Saul, that I may shew him kindness for Jonathan's sake?
2 Sam 9:6 Now when Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, was come unto David, he fell on his face, and did reverence. And David said, Mephibosheth. And he answered, Behold thy servant!
7 And David said unto him, Fear not: for I will surely shew thee kindness for Jonathan thy father's sake, and will restore thee all the land of Saul thy father; and thou shalt eat bread at my table continually.
David did not personally know Mephibosheth, yet he had made a covenant with Jonathan. And because of Jonathan he took Mephibosheth in and took care of him.
And this is why we are elect. Not because of any merit of our own, but because we are in Christ. And because we are in Christ, we are shown grace on his behalf.
But you have to believe on Christ to be "in him". You cannot be chosen outside of Christ. And this is what is so wrong about Calvinism, it teaches God elects men outside of Christ and his merit.
You cannot have a relationship with the Father unless you first have a relationship with Jesus.
1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
Calvinism teaches that God the Father elects men who are unbelievers, they are denying that Jesus is the Christ. He is electing antichrist!
You can argue all you want, but that is what your doctrine teaches. You are elected before you can believe on Christ by your doctrine. By your doctrine you cannot possibly believe on Christ unless the Father first elects you and then regenerates you. So you have God electing antichrists!
Unreal.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
If GOD did not know us from the beginning how could HE know who would or would not believe?
Your tabloid-style is very repulsive. Try to be more winsome Winman. You're disgraceful.
That is what the Romans passage says.The relationship with God existed before the foundation of the world. That is what the text states.
peace to youraying:
I believe Peter disagrees with you on that.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
We are elect according to the fore knowledge of God but it is through sanctification. In other words we are saved before we are elect and it is only "in Christ" That we are elect according to God's foreknowledge.
MB
Ephesians 1:4 does NOT say that God the Father chose "us [who are] in him." It says that He chose "us [to be] in him." "In him" is an adverb that modifies hath chosen; it is NOT an adjective that modifies us. "In Christ," "in behalf of Christ," "for the sake of Christ" are similar phrases that Paul uses to describe the actions of God the Father and the Holy Spirit upon people to apply the atonement of Christ.
Phi 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
How do we become "in him"?
"Having predestinated us" is a present perfect participle that explains the means and the purpose by which God the Father chose us to be in him. He worked out His choice by predestinating us to adoption by Jesus Christ into Himself. Jesus Christ is the One adopting people, and He does it into Himself.
The Father made us accepted in the beloved (Jesus Christ). We did not make ourselves accepted in Christ. God the Father chose us before the foundation of the world to be in Christ by predestinating us for Christ's adoption and making us accepted in Christ. How does God justly bring this about?...
We, who are chosen before the foundation of the world, are redeemed (purchased) through the blood of Christ. Imagine that! His blood actually (not hypothetically) purchased "us"--a people.
Um, well, God is God. He can have a one-sided intimacy with those who have yet to exist in the plane of time. Knowing a person implies some kind of personal relationship. The verse does NOT say that God foreknows their actions or their faith. It says that He foreknows them. He foreknows people. When you say that you know a person, do you simply express that you have cognizance of that persons' existence and facts about the person? I know who President Obama is, but I do not know him. Such would imply that I would have to have met him, established rapport, and obtained some kind of relationship. Understand?
God elected a people according to Him choosing to enter into a relationship with them. He foreknew them.
No. You read into the verse by inserting that He foreknew the actions or faith of the people. The verse does not say that. It says that He foreknew them--people. In both English and Greek when someone knows a person, it means that he has a relationship with that person. If God foreknows a person it means that He has a relationship with that person beforehand. This foreknowing/forerelationshipping is the basis by which God effectually brings these same ones to Himself.
What does it mean to "know" someone?
I do not hate God's foreknowledge. I believe that God foreknows everything that will come to pass. He knows everything that will happen that He directly and indirectly brings to pass. However, in the matter of God's election of a people, it is not based upon God foreknowing what they would do. He foreknew them, meaning that He forerelationshipped them.
Oh yes, the English word foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is the nominative form of the verb foreknow. Because in English we use the nominative knowledge as pertaining merely to cognizance, it is rather difficult to form a nominative of foreknow in English as it pertains to knowing people, the common use of the word itself throws people off. One could translate prognwsin as foreknowing, but that would still not completely convey the concept.
The verse is not stating that God elects according to a passive awareness of what certain people would do.
The word for knew there is not a form of ginwskw, but a form of eidw.
Yes, I totally understand that God knows in the "passive" cognizance sense everything, which include the fact that He also knows who will believe in this same sense. However, you are trying to limit God's elect to a response from God out of mere passive cognizance of what these people would do. This is not the case in Scripture. Some passages shed light on how God effectually calls His elect to Himself. Some passages explain the roles of the members of the Trinity in bringing this to pass. God's foreknowing (proginwskw) people goes beyond mere cognizance. He knew them beforehand as a person would "know" another person.
Is this expressing passive cognizance or a relationship? Because Joseph and Mary were espoused to each other, I have a slight feeling that this verse is not saying that Joseph was unaware of Mary's existence.
I am pretty sure that you would accept that Jesus is saying that He did not have a relationship with these people. Otherwise, you have a problem of Jesus being unaware of the existence of certain people.
Is Jesus expressing here that He and the Father are merely cognizant of each other's existence or is He describing a relationship?
All of these are uses of ginwskw, the same word that appears in some form in all occurrences of foreknow in God's election.
In verse 18 Jesus did say "I speak not of you all." Judas is excluded from the positive promise in the previous verse. Also, the word for know here again is a form of eidw, not ginwskw.
Yes, Jesus elected Judas for a purpose. This is not his election unto salvation.
Why do you insist on God's ability to foreknow (as in relationship) be limited to the constraints of human beings. God's election is based upon His foreknowing people. This means that He elected certain people based upon his choice to enter into a relationship with certain people.
Those whom God foreknew He predestinated for sanctification, called, justified, and glorified.
And I have definite Scripture to support what I believe, including the definition of Greek words, syntax, lexicon, and grammar. I have strong verses to support what I believe, but you take your (possibly incorrect) understanding of certain verses to try to explain away what other verses seem to state very clearly.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Another insightful post AresMan. I am learning something whether Winman does or not. Thanks much. OldRegular
Man doesn't choose God. God chooses man I believe Christ even said that. Though I have no doubt because, I said that you'll most likely find some reason to dispute it.
MB
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Neither! Why do you insist on limiting the power of GOD? A mystery or is it your ego?
Who is limiting God? You yourself agree God could know who would believe. I am saying that is what the scriptures show. We did not exist before the foundation of the world, we did not have a personal relationship with him.
And the scriptures say we are chosen "in him". I showed from Spurgeon himself saying that a person can only be "in Christ" if he places trust in Christ. So you cannot be elect or chosen unless you have faith in Christ. Nobody is born with faith in Christ, you didn't believe in Christ before the foundation of the world. You place trust in Christ after you hear the gospel message and believe. Therefore God's foreknowledge had to be those he could foresee would believe.
You like to stress the "know", I am concerned with the "fore".
That is the most speculative thought I have read in quite a while. LOL
The way God knew us I believe is obvious. Since there is nothing He doesn't know of course He knew of us and all there is about us. After all He is all knowing. What He knew neither you nor anyone else knows. LOL! It certainly wasn't on some mystical plane of existance. and it wasn't a one on one relationship as you've suggested. The only intimacy is that God is our creator. Of course He knows us just as He knows everyother human in His creation.
We are not elected before creation. We are elected in Him and we are always sanctified frist then chosen. God's word says so plainly and I believe it .
Pardon me but if anyone read into the verse here is you and your Calvinist logic.
HMMMMMM I believe creating it from nothing sums that up quite nicely don't you think.
I agree that God knows all about us but I do not agree He is responsible for our sins nor for everything that happens. This is more double predestination bunk, it isn't biblical.
I don't think anyone here is so ignorant they misunderstand the word foreknow.
MB
You must be a Universalist:
Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren:
Rom 8:30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
I said that you are limiting God's election to being that of responding to something that the elect do autonomously and qualitatively. God's election unto salvation is not mere passive cognizance of the future actions of people; it is proactive in that it effectually draws people to Himself. Passages such as Ephesians chapters 1 and 2, Romans 8:28-30, 9:23-24, 11:4-11, 1 Corinthians 1:21-31, Philippians 1:28-29, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Revelation 5:9-10 among others demonstrate an active election through an effectual call. Based upon the witness of these Scriptures and the fact that grammatically having people as the direct object of know/foreknow connotes a personal relationship, God's election is according to the purpose of His will where He chooses to enter into a relationship with certain people and thereby draws them to Himself. The Holy Spirit raises His elect to spiritual life at some point in their lives and makes them believers by convincing them inexorably of the truth of the Gospel. This is not through coercion, but through love, mercy, and grace He guarantees the salvation of the elect and all that this entails--faith, justification, sanctification, and glorification.
Yes, God knows in a cognitive sense who will believe. However, He also knows them. As the Father and Son know each other (John 10:15), as Joseph knew Mary after she conceived (Matthew 1:24-25), and unlike how Jesus does NOT know the false followers (Matthew 7:23), so God foreknew those whom He called, justified, sanctified, and glorified.
No, but He foreknew us.
Yes, one can only be positionally in Christ until one is regenerate and has faith. However, you seem to think that this is somehow autonomous on the part of the elect. in him is an adverb that modifies hath chosen, NOT us. He chose us to be in Him.
I am not saying that God elects apart from Christ. I am saying that one having faith and being in Christ is the result of God's election, not the cause or qualifier of it. I know that you understand this position, yet you keep erecting strawmen that really do not represent accurately what you are trying to refute.
If God's election is "before the foundation of the world" as the Scriptures indicate, then one can be elect and not yet be born or have not yet come to faith. However, all those who are elect will come to faith at some point in their lives through the effectual drawing of the Holy Spirit. How can you deny the plain wording of the Scriptures? You, yourself agree that God knows who will believe. If His election is "before the foundation of the world," then obviously one is numbered among the elect before that person comes to faith. However, that person will come to faith and God will fulfill His salvific will effectually.
Of course not. There was a point in time where I was unregenerate. God brought the gospel message into my life through preaching, the Holy Spirit shed its truth in my heart and effectually drew me to God. This is all a result of God foreknowing me and thereby electing me. I had nothing in the process to contribute autonomously that enabled God to accomplish His perfect will. None of this has anything at all to do with anything intrinsically good or qualifying about me. All glory for the fact that I stand redeemed goes to God and God alone. I could not have done anything in my unregenerate state to enable God's election. On the contrary He enabled me. :thumbs:
Yes, and God's election preceded and caused this to come about.
Nope. God's foreknowing people and thereby electing means that all of my salvation from start to finish is a perfect and unfailing work of God on my behalf.
I stress the know and its contextual and necessary definition, and then add the fore so that the whole concept can be properly understood.
If you cannot see the connotative difference between foreknowing people and foreknowing actions, I would appreciate it if you would address this portion of my earlier post:
Is this expressing passive cognizance or a relationship? Because Joseph and Mary were espoused to each other, I have a slight feeling that this verse is not saying that Joseph was unaware of Mary's existence.
I am pretty sure that you would accept that Jesus is saying that He did not have a relationship with these people. Otherwise, you have a problem of Jesus being unaware of the existence of certain people.
Is Jesus expressing here that He and the Father are merely cognizant of each other's existence or is He describing a relationship?
All of these are uses of ginwskw, the same word that appears in some form in all occurrences of foreknow in God's election.
No sir I'm a dispensationalist and I believe in the fundamentals of scriptures nothing else could be true. I do not deny the truth in Romans 8:29-30. I agree with them whole heartedly although I don't know, if I may or may not agree with your particular interpretation of them.
MB