-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Foreknew?
- Thread starter God's_Servant
- Start date
Either you do not get it or you do not like it because it interferes with what you believe. I don't know how I can explain it any further.
Yes, God is cognizant of everything. However, He also "knows" people.
Of course!
I believe I have proved my case. I don't know how much else I can try to get into some people's heads that to "know" someone implies some kind of mutual relationship.
How in the world can you explain this verse with this logic?:
Are there people that God does not know exist? Yes, God has equal "knowledge" of every individual person. However, when God says that He knows people, He means that He has a relationship with them. If God "never knew" people, He never had a mutual relationship with them. He knows every little detail about them, but He does not have a relationship with them. Joseph did not know Mary until after she conceived. If the word know here is a euphemism for certain actions related to the intimate relationship between a husband and wife, then surely it can indicate a less suggestive, but still mutual relationship as Matthew 7:23 absolutely demands. What else could "never knew" here mean?
Why does the Bible say in several places that God's election is "before the foundation of the world"? Of course I understand that God is unbound by time and there is no "before" to God. However, the words are there to emphasize the point to pre-relativity-physicists that God's working is according to His eternal plan and does not depend on the autonomous contribution of man to enable God to carry it out.
Please show me the verses. What I see is that God predestinated for sanctification, called, justified, and glorified those whom He foreknew.
Please explain why I am wrong from context, grammar, and verses like Matthew 7:23.
Where does the Bible declare that God's knowing/foreknowing people is based upon creation? It would seem to me that you are reading into the text. I am simply exegeting the grammar and comparing it with other verses that strongly prove my point.
I do not believe that God is responsible for our sins nor makes us sin. We make ourselves sin (James 1:13-14). We willfully sin of our own volition and bear responsibility. I just do not believe that doing anything truly righteous in the eyes of God is something that we can do of ourselves. God has to regenerate us and give us a new heart before we can please Him. I do not believe in "double predestination" and such a viewpoint lessens the intrinsic wickedness of man and the contrasting righteousness of God in calling His people.
In certain cases, however, God did orchestrate certain wicked actions to accomplish good on His part:
Explain to me what it means to "know" someone. Explain what "never knew" in Matthew 7:23 means. Attach fore to this definition. There you go.
1. Foreknowledge
God foreknew His Elect and has written down the names of those being saved to the Book of Life of the Lamb.
Then do we understand fully about what His foreknowledge is? No!
2. Pre-destination
Do we understand what pre-destination is? No we don't, though we often asssume we do.
We don't understand fully about God's attributes and we don't (not even Calvin) understand fully about how our fate is designed.
So all human discussions are based on our limited understanding of His attributes and our limited understanding of what pre-destination is.
post 27 under thread foreknow:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amo 3:1 ¶ Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
To know intimately as a husband knowes his wife.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. Hsa 1:6 ¶ And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And [God] said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. Hsa 1:9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God]. Amo 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
Hsa 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
In about 750 BC God said that the only people of all the earth that He knew were the house of Israel and the house of Judah. So in Romans when He says he foreknew someone who could it be?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amo 3:1 ¶ Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
To know intimately as a husband knowes his wife.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also. Hsa 1:6 ¶ And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And [God] said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. Hsa 1:9 Then said [God], Call his name Loammi: for ye [are] not my people, and I will not be your [God]. Amo 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as [corn] is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.
Hsa 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
In about 750 BC God said that the only people of all the earth that He knew were the house of Israel and the house of Judah. So in Romans when He says he foreknew someone who could it be?
Robert Snow
New Member
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
You are correct, we are chosen in Him. But, what are we chosen to? We are chosen to be holy and without blame. This isn't saying we are chosen to salvation. Those chosen for salvation are those who will believe the Gospel!
Actually inorder for you to come to the conclusion you have to skip over the two little words " IN HIM" You were not in Him before the foundation of the world. If you had been you would not have been born with the propensity to sin. You would have been born saved. This verse and the one you quoted make perfect sense because they harmonize.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
You will notice that our election according to the fore knowledge of God is through Sanctification of the Spirit. Sense it is through "sanctification" and "in Him" this shows clearly that our election can only be after Salvation. Your misunderstanding is because you didn't consider the Bible as a whole in what it says about election.
MB
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
AresMan has effectively discussed the phrase "in him" in earlier posts so I suhggest you read them. However the Verse i quoted, Ephesians 1:4 states that GOD chose us before the foundation of the world.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
David Michael Harris
Active Member
Deep one. For me it's about end results.
We all need to repent, because we are certainly not living in the same realm as the early church. Just listen to the Scriptures. They were in another world so to speak. They had true leaders. What we need today is men full of faith and the Holy Spirit. And I don't mean Benny Hinn.
"Like" has nothing to do with it. We simply didn't exist physcially or spiritually before the foundation of the world. In order to know someone on a one to one basis there would have had to be some kind of contact from both parties.
To your self you have proved it but your words do not prove the doctrine of Christ. Only God's word is proof.
The only relationship God had with us before the foundation of the world was the knowing we would be procreated. In that knowing He knew everything about us. We did not yet exist for it to be called a one on one relationship. He knew our personallities and what we would do because He is God. One to One also means we would have had to know Him as well and we did not.
It means Christ never knew them as one of His. It doesn't mean He didn't know of them.
I don't deny it says before the foundation of the world but we have to consider all the Bible says about election. It says we are elect "IN HIM" and Peter said in 1st Peter 1:2; Our election is through sactification. A lot of people read right over those words never considering them at all they are so over whelmed about about election and end up misunderstanding what the Bible says as a whole.
They see election and stopped there.
'Tis true. I agree though I do not believe that is writen in stone meaning men are also predestined to hell and damnation. There is no such thing as double predestination in the Bible.
This verse is a picture of the separation of the goats and the sheep. Christ said in that same chapter;
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
They never knew Christ as savior even though they may have done all they said. Many forget there is power in the name of Jesus Christ. It's why when we pray we ask in His name. Christ didn't know them as sheep.
Right after verse 23 Christ said;
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
My Gramar may not be as elequint as I would like it to be. This is true.
To answer your question above;
God's knowing has absolutely nothing to do with creation other that He Knew who and what He would create an eternity in the past before He actually did. He has always known. God is eternal and all knowledgeable.
I do not believe it is possible to please God with out faith. I believe Salvation is all of God. I also believe in the freewill of man but his own freewill is what keeps man from Salvation. I don't believe man chooses God but that God chooses men. Salvation isn't complicated as some make it. Any man can be saved by hearing the gospel if they will only listen at least passively.
Well He did create evil and sin is a by product of the Law that He knew would come about as a result of Law.
To know what's in there hearts. Christ didn't know them as His own.Explain to me what it means to "know" someone. Explain what "never knew" in Matthew 7:23 means. Attach fore to this definition. There you go.
MB
Yes, they misinterpret "in him" to mean "to be in him" as meaning a future event that will take place. They believe a person is elected or chosen outside of faith in Christ, and that then the Father gives us to the Son.
This is absurd. A person only need read the first two chapters of Ephesians to see that we are repeatedly spoken of as being "in Christ", and it is shown that this comes through faith in Jesus.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
God the Father doesn't choose you outside of Christ. We were made accepted "in the beloved", the beloved being Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
We must be "in Christ" to be chosen, we must be joined in union together with him.
So, throughout Ephesians 1 and 2 it explains what "in him" means. It is being joined together with Christ in his body through faith. God before the foundation of the world chose those "in him".
Now because we did not exist before the foundation of the world, it is obvious that God foresaw who would believe and therefore could elect those who would believe.
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't believe this could be any clearer. You're right A men.
MB
Would God elect anyone who would not believe?
Robert Snow
New Member
God has decreed that those who put their faith and trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross will be holy and blameless before Him (God the Father) in love.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You really did not address the question that I posed. You say in the initial post:
So I ask again: How can we be holy and without blame before GOD unless we are Saved?
Robert Snow
New Member
If you can't see it then you are not trying to. I believe, like most Calvinist, you have made up your mind to believe this false doctrine and nothing anyone says will change your mind.
I'm just glad I don't have to twist and ignore as many scriptures as you in order to have the bible make sense.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Winman
I have said numerous times that there is no Salvation without the atoning death of Jesus Christ; thus without His death any talk of election is nonsense.
Who made you [and all the elect] accepted in the beloved, Winman or GOD?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Then why don't you enlighten my poor twisted doctrine and answer the question? I would think it would be a good Christian work for you.
On a serious note I can square all my doctrine with all Scripture. Freewillism cannot. Your doctrine is directly contrary to the following Scripture and many more:
John 3:3-8
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Romans 8:29, 30
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Ephesians 1:3-6
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Last edited by a moderator:
Robert Snow
New Member
I've answered it. I will not fall victim to your usual tactic. Even though you are given answers, you continue to ignore them and ask for over and over. If you don't like my answer, so be it. I will not answer you again!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
There goes another thorn, err star, out of your crown!:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: