Foreknew?

[AresMan]

Yes, they misinterpret "in him" to mean "to be in him" as meaning a future event that will take place.

By "to be" I meant to cause. God chose us to be in Christ meaning that He chose us to make us in Christ. Let's compare some verses, shall we?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"In him" is not the qualifier for election; it is the result of election.

Compare:
(1) Eph 1:4 "he hath chosen us"
(2) 2Th 2:13 "God hath...chosen you"

(1) Eph 1:4 "before the foundation of the world"
(2) 2Th 2:13 "from the beginning"

(1) Eph 1:4 "in him"
(2) 2Th 2:13 "to salvation"

(1) Eph 1:4 "that we should be holy" [hagious]
(2) 2Th 2:13 "through sanctification [hagiosmw] of the Spirit"


In him/to salvation

God chose us to make us "in him."

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

God did not choose us because we qualified for his choosing by making ourselves "in Christ." He chose us to be in Christ. We are his workmanship. He created us to be in Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God chose us "to salvation." The word to there in the Greek is the word eis, which means "to/in/into." The same word is used in passages like the following:

Mat 2:8 And he sent them to [eis] Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in [eis: "into"] him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

As Herod sent the wise men to Bethlehem, God chose us to salvation. God's election results in salvation; it is not based upon people "qualifying" themselves for it.

Ephesians 1:5 explains the means by which God chose us to be in Christ. He "predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself." God the Father predestinated us for adoption. Jesus Christ adopted us for Himself. This is a similar construct to Colossians 1:16 where all things were created by Jesus Christ and for Him. God is doing all the actions here!


that we should be holy/through sanctification of the Spirit

Now, before you whine about "that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" and "through sanctification of the Spirit," let me explain them ahead of time. Not all occurrences of forms of the words sanctify, sanctification, and holy have to do with our systematized "doctrine of sanctification." The words simply refer to "set apart" and can have a variety of contexts.

God chose us to be in Christ so that we would be set apart from the world. How did he do that? Through sanctification of the Holy Spirit.

Tit 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

God chose us to be in Christ. He chose us into salvation. How did he bring this choice to fruition? The Holy Spirit set us apart. He washed us with regeneration. He renewed us. He sanctified us.


and belief of the truth

Also, let's look at other factor phrases that you might whine about. Yes, we are saved through faith and we are called by the Gospel. You assume that this means that man autonomously contributes this to enable God to complete His saving work on man's behalf. I contend, however, that these are things that God does sovereignly in His effectual work to choose a people to Himself.

First, are saving repentance and faith autonomous contributions of man? No, they are things that God gives:

Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Phi 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Before you whine about "were ordained" in Acts 13:48 meaning "disposed themselves," tetagmenoi is a past participle. The word in the exact same tense and voice appear in the following passage:

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained [tetagmenai] of God.

God gives repentance and faith through regeneration. Without God doing this supernatural intervention on behalf of one, no one will positively respond to the Gospel to salvation. Therefore, God's work of giving repentance and faith is part of the effect of His choosing people in Christ/to salvation. Repentance and faith are the pecuniary means through which one is justified.


continued...

 

[AresMan]

whereunto he called you by our gospel

Those who come to gospel faith do so through an effectual call of God. Scriptures that distinguish the effectual call from the general call are ridiculously clear.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Rom 1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

1Co 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

1Co 7:17 But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches.
1Co 7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.
1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

1Th 2:12 That ye would walk worthy of God, who hath called you unto his kingdom and glory.

2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

1Pe 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, establish, strengthen, settle you.

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

These passages demonstrate the truth of a special effectual call that results in salvation. The ones who are saved are "the called" ones (as apposed to those who are not "called"). Also, the Greek word for the church ekklesia means "the called out ones."


continued...

 

[AresMan]

They believe a person is elected or chosen outside of faith in Christ, and that then the Father gives us to the Son.

Dude, why is it that you cannot understand my point? Election is inseparable from saving faith. Saving faith is a result of the election and work of God. God chose us to be in Christ. He chose us to salvation. He did this "before the foundation of the world." Therefore, at some point in time those whom God chose to save He will ultimately, sovereignly bring them to repentance and faith.

This is absurd. A person only need read the first two chapters of Ephesians to see that we are repeatedly spoken of as being "in Christ", and it is shown that this comes through faith in Jesus.

Yes, the position of being "in Christ" comes through faith in Jesus. God chose us to be in Christ and He guarantees that He will bring His elect at some point in their lives to repentance and faith to their salvation.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

In Christ we obtained a predestinated inheritance because we were predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself (v. 5). Jesus Christ gave His life for the sheep (John 10:11). He died to purchase the church with His blood (Acts 20:28). He died to redeem "a peculiar people" (Titus 2:14). He "shall save His people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21).

12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

This is not saying what you think it is. The "who first trusted in Christ" are Paul and the apostles. Paul then proceeds in the next verse to say "in whom ye also trusted." Paul is not saying that "first trusting in Christ" is the qualification for being elected. He is dictating the chronological order whereby God saved His people through His election. He saved the apostles and Paul first and then used them to bring salvation to these Gentiles.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God the Father doesn't choose you outside of Christ. We were made accepted "in the beloved", the beloved being Jesus Christ.

Don't forget the context. God the Father made us accepted in the beloved [Jesus Christ]. We did not make ourselves accepted in Christ. God did not choose us outside of Christ; He chose us to be in Christ.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

We must be "in Christ" to be chosen, we must be joined in union together with him.

This is not the context of these verses. These verses are saying that just as God raised Jesus from the dead and glorified Him, so also He raised us to spiritual life and glorifies us. These verses are NOT saying (as you insist) that we have to be "in Christ" to qualify for God's election; they are saying that God the Father does all these things to us via His election.

So, throughout Ephesians 1 and 2 it explains what "in him" means. It is being joined together with Christ in his body through faith.

Yes, I agree. God chose us "before the foundation of the world" to be joined together with Christ in His body through faith.

God before the foundation of the world chose those "in him".

How many times do I have to explain this? The verse is NOT saying that God chose "us who are in Christ." The verse is saying that God chose "us to be in Christ." In him in this verse is a preposition phrase that functions as an adverb to describe the manner in which God chose; it is NOT an adjective to describe "us."

You constantly debate by asserting things over and over again. When anyone actually proves your assertions wrong you just ignore them or assert that they are wrong just because, and then you continue to assert them over and over again. You think that just because you assert that something is true, therefore it must be true.

Now because we did not exist before the foundation of the world, it is obvious that God foresaw who would believe and therefore could elect those who would believe.

See, here now you just assert this, and you have not provided any reasonable efforts to attempt to rebut all my arguments from Greek words, tenses, voices, moods, grammar, and my verses which demonstrate clear context of what knowing people and foreknowing people must connote. You just assert, assert, assert. You just assume, assume, assume. You merely assume that you win an argument and prove your point by posting verses and arguing an opinion; however, you do not prove that the words mean exactly what you claim they mean.

 

[psalms109:31]

Whosoever

Whosoever hears the gospel of our salvation are chosen to be in Christ, but only those who are in Christ will be saved.

 

[Winman]

Yes, I agree. God chose us "before the foundation of the world" to be joined together with Christ in His body through faith.

False, that is not what the scriptures say. They do not say we are chosen "to be in him", they say we are chosen "in him". You have to be "in Christ" first to be chosen or elected, not the other way around as you falsely teach.

See, here now you just assert this, and you have not provided any reasonable efforts to attempt to rebut all my arguments from Greek words, tenses, voices, moods, grammar, and my verses which demonstrate clear context of what knowing people and foreknowing people must connote. You just assert, assert, assert. You just assume, assume, assume. You merely assume that you win an argument and prove your point by posting verses and arguing an opinion; however, you do not prove that the words mean exactly what you claim they mean.

Look, I do not know Greek, and I am not about to take years to study it just to argue with you. I'm sure that if I did know Greek, you would still disagree with me. I am sure many who are expert in Greek disagree with your interpretation of this passage, I know for a fact they do, as I found this from the Jamison, Fausset Brown Commentary.

4. hath chosen us--Greek, "chose us out for Himself" (namely, out of the world, Galatians 1:4 ): referring to His original choice, spoken of as past.
in him--The repetition of the idea, "in Christ" ( Ephesians 1:3 ), implies the paramount importance of the truth that it is in Him, and by virtue of union to Him, the Second Adam, the Restorer ordained for us from everlasting, the Head of redeemed humanity, believers have all their blessings ( Ephesians 3:11 ).
before the foundation of the world--This assumes the eternity of the Son of God ( John 17:5 John 17:24 ), as of the election of believers in Him ( 2 Timothy 1:9 , 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ).

So, obviously some who know Greek (probably far better than you) disagree with your personal interpretation of Eph 1:4. Take it up with them. I am 100% satified with the English translation God has provided for the English speaking peoples.

 

[AresMan]

Whosoever hears the gospel of our salvation are chosen to be in Christ, but only those who are in Christ will be saved.

Yes, I agree with this. God only saves via His gospel:

Jam 1:18 Of his own will [bouletheis: "{He,} having counseled"] begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

God uses His Word to rebirth/regenerate people.

A boule is a "counsel." It is something that someone "determines" or "wills" to do as opposed to a thelw, which is a "desire." God determines that He will save a certain people by regenerating them through His own Word. Those who are saved are saved because God effectually accomplished it on their behalf using His Word as a tool to guarantee His results.

Here are some other examples of boule:

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will [bouletai: "counsels/determines"] [to] reveal him.

Does the Son try to reveal the Father to certain people? In the previous verse Jesus just said that the Father hid things from the wise and revealed them to children.

1Co 12:11 But all these [spiritual gifts] worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will [bouletai: "he counsels/determines"].

Does the Holy Spirit try to give His people spiritual gifts or does He actually give them wherein they possess them?

Heb 6:17 Wherein God, willing [boulomenos: "counseling/determining"] more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel [boules], confirmed it by an oath:

God determined to demonstrate how his counsel cannot be changed and swore upon it. Strong stuff!

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward ["beloved"], not willing [boulomenos: "counseling/determining"] that any [of us] should perish, but that all [of us] should come to repentance.

As "us-ward" and "beloved" are the saved writer and readers of the epistle, God counsels/determines that none of "us/beloved" shall perish but that all of "us/beloved" should come to repentance before His second coming. God guarantees that all whom He chooses to save will be saved.

God guarantees that His Word will do exactly what He wants it to do:

Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Praise God for His effectual working power of salvation! He uses His own Word to guarantee the salvation of His people and to make them in Christ!

 

[psalms109:31]

2 Corinthians 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering ] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.