The Righteous Judgment of God-The Spirit Convicts

[kyredneck]

This thread has it's roots in a previous thread of mine:
'Did the Son ask the Father to spare Him the agony of the cross?'
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=60745

My position concerning 'kosmos' in Jn 16:8 is contrary to what is generally believed.

Aside from the conspiracy to kill Him from the beginning, there has been noted as many as seventeen illegalities committed by the Jews in the trial of Jesus:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/toc/toc07.htm
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/186404/the_illegalities_of_jesus_trial_.html

who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pet 2:23

Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5:7

I believe the statement, 'nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt' (Mt 26:39), was Christ committing 'himself to him the judgeth righteously'. I believe that His request from the same verse, 'if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me', was a supplication to 'him that was able to save him from death'. I believe the fact that God raised Him from the dead shows both that His supplication was heard, and that God declared Christ to be righteous though the Jews judged Him to be worthy of death.

When Christ commissioned the twelve apostles He foretold them:
But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in their synagogues they will scourge you; yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. Mt 10:17-20

In the Olivet Discourse He foretold them:
But before all these things, they shall lay their hands on you, and shall persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for my name`s sake. It shall turn out unto you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate beforehand how to answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to withstand or to gainsay. Lk 21:12-15

In the Farewell Discourse He foretold them:
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God.....And he, when he [the Comforter] is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. Jn 16:2, 8-11

The 'world' meant here is not the human race in general. This is the 'world' that Christ is referring to:
Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18:20.

To paraphrase the 8th verse:
When the Spirit comes, He will convict the Jews of the judicial murder of Christ, and will declare Christ to be righteous in that God has raised Him from the dead, and will pass judgment upon this generation.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Read, listen, hear the Spirit convict the apostate ecclesiastical system of the Jews, through the testimony of His witnesses, of the murder of the Righteous One, and declare Him indeed to be righteous. Take note, in all these examples given, of the redundancy of the message from the Comforter to the Jews; YOU KILLED HIM, BUT GOD RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD.

Acts 2:
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and spake forth unto them, saying, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and give ear unto my words.
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God unto you by mighty works and wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you, even as ye yourselves know;
23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay:
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pangs of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation.

Acts 3:
12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this man? or why fasten ye your eyes on us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made him to walk?
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied before the face of Pilate, when he had determined to release him.14 But ye denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted unto you,
15 and killed the Prince of life; whom God raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
23 And it shall be, that every soul that shall not hearken to that prophet, shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

Acts 4:
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders,
9 if we this day are examined concerning a good deed done to an impotent man, by what means this man is made whole;
10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even in him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Acts 5:
27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them,
28 saying, We strictly charged you not to teach in this name: and behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man`s blood upon us.
29 But Peter and the apostles answered and said, We must obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew, hanging him on a tree.
31 Him did God exalt with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, to give repentance to Israel, and remission of sins.
32 And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts 6:
8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.
9 But there arose certain of them that were of the synagogue called the synagogue of the Libertines, and of the Cyrenians, and of the Alexandrians, and of them of Cilicia and Asia, disputing with Stephen.
10 And they were not able to withstand the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spake.
15 And all that sat in the council, fastening their eyes on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel.
Acts 7:
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Spirit: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets did not your fathers persecute? and they killed them that showed before of the coming of the Righteous One; of whom ye have now become betrayers and murderers;
53 ye who received the law as it was ordained by angels, and kept it not.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7

Acts 10:
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom also they slew, hanging him on a tree.
40 Him God raised up the third day, and gave him to be made manifest,
41 not to all the people, but unto witnesses that were chosen before of God, even to us, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.

Acts 13:
16 And Paul stood up, and beckoning with the hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, hearken:
27 For they that dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled them by condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet asked they of Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all things that were written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 and he was seen for many days of them that came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses unto the people.

 

[Grasshopper]

Well, great minds think alike. John Gill agrees with you:

he will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment: by "the world" is principally meant, the Jews; the world among whom Christ personally was, who knew him not, disbelieved him, rejected him as the Messiah, hated and persecuted him, even unto death;

Adam Clark sees it also:

The world - The Jewish nation first, and afterwards the Gentile world; for his influences shall not be confined to one people, place, or time.

You did an excellent job of showing from scripture why they believe this.

 

[Allan]

Well, great minds think alike. John Gill agrees with you:

he will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment: by "the world" is principally meant, the Jews; the world among whom Christ personally was, who knew him not, disbelieved him, rejected him as the Messiah, hated and persecuted him, even unto death;

Adam Clark sees it also:

The world - The Jewish nation first, and afterwards the Gentile world; for his influences shall not be confined to one people, place, or time.

You did an excellent job of showing from scripture why they believe this.

Actaully, neither of these two believe what Kyredneck is espousing.
Kyr is stating that 'world' means "ONLY" the Jews.
However Gill and Clark are both stating is it first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles but that indeed the term 'world' includes both groups.

Gill states 'world' means "principally" means the Jews, or primarily to the Jews first, yet the term 'principally' itself does not speak of exclusivity but of inclusiveness though relating to order. Principally relates to what is first but of necessitity includess at least a second and can continue to potentially a third, or fourth, ect...


Kyrednect, it appears you trying WAY TO HARD to make scripture conform to your view but neither in the English and especially the Greek can you make your case if you exegete the passages according to context. This is not a dig at you but simply a statement of fact. I know.. you don't agree

John of Japan tried to show you this in another thread regarding the Father allowing the 'cup to pass' from Jesus. I am not going to continue in trying to get you see it because it is apparent, at present, to be not something you wish to hear. That is fine and I beleive if you keep digging as you are will see it for yourself eventually. Keep diggin.. you'll get there. :thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

Well, great minds think alike. John Gill agrees with you:

he will reprove the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment: by "the world" is principally meant, the Jews; the world among whom Christ personally was, who knew him not, disbelieved him, rejected him as the Messiah, hated and persecuted him, even unto death;

Adam Clark sees it also:

The world - The Jewish nation first, and afterwards the Gentile world; for his influences shall not be confined to one people, place, or time.

You did an excellent job of showing from scripture why they believe this.

Thanks for commenting Grasshopper. It may seem odd, but I honestly had not bothered to check and see what other commentators had to say on Jn 16:8. I had never heard it preached or written the way I see it and I guess I just assumed I was alone in my viewpoint on it; and I certainly did not expect to be aligned with folks like Gill or Clark. I got Pink's 'Exposition of the Gospel of John' out today and, lo and behold, I'm somewhat in agreement with him also. Pink sees it as Clark, but he applies 'kosmos' to mean the Gentile world from the gitgo, without any mention of the Jewish world.

Here's some excerpts from Pink:

"And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:8). There is hardly a sentence in this Gospel which has been more generally misunderstood than the one just quoted. With rare exceptions this verse is understood to refer to the benign activities of the Holy Spirit among those who hear the Gospel. It is supposed to define His work in the conscience prior to conversion. It is regarded as a description of His gracious operations in bringing the sinner to see his need of a Savior. So firmly has this idea taken root in the minds even of the Lord’s people, it is difficult to induce them to study this verse for themselves—study it in the light of what precedes, study it in the light of the amplification which follows, study the terms employed, comparing their usage in other passages. If this be done carefully and dispassionately, we feel confident that many will discover how untenable is the popular view of it.

It should be very evident that something must be wrong if this verse be interpreted so as to clash with Christ’s explicit statement in John 14:17, "The Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive." What then is the character of the "reproof" that is here spoken of? Is it an evangelical conviction wrought in the heart, or is it something that is altogether external? Almost all the older commentators regarded it as the former. We, with an increasing number of later writers, believe it is the latter. One of the leading lexicons of the twentieth century gives as the meaning of elencho, "to bring in guilty; to put to shame by proving one to be wrong; to convict with a view to condemnation and judgment, but not necessarily to convince; to bring in guilty without any confession or feeling of guilt by the guilty one."...........It is rather refutation by proofs, convicting by unanswerable arguments as an advocate, that is meant.".........."Here the Holy Spirit is not spoken of as dealing with individuals when He regenerates them and they believe, but as bringing conviction to the world because of sin. The Holy Ghost being here, convicts the world, i.e., what is outside where He is. Were there faith, He would be in their midst: but the world doth not believe. Hence Christ is, as everywhere in John, the standard for judging the condition of men" (Mr. W. Kelly).

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/John/john_54.htm

 

[kyredneck]

Allan, what's your take on Jn 16:8? Do you believe as 'the many'? That the passage is referring to the 'benign activities of the Holy Spirit among those who hear the Gospel'? 'As dealing with individuals when He regenerates them and they believe'? Or is it something else?

.....Kyr is stating that 'world' means "ONLY" the Jews.

In Jn 16:8, I believe the immediate audience understood Christ to mean the Jews. Whether the passage can be rightly applied to the Gentiles by way of anagogy, I don't know. I know of no where in the scriptures that the Gentiles are charged with the judicial murder of Christ.

Kyrednect, it appears you trying WAY TO HARD to make scripture conform to your view but neither in the English and especially the Greek can you make your case if you exegete the passages according to context.

That's right, I don't agree Allan. And, trust me, when I'm consumed in my studies in the Word, it's a delight, a joy, not trying way to hard as you put it.

I believe you wizards of exegesis miss out on a lot Allan; and trust me, that's not a dig. I'm fully aware of the necessity of proper exegesis. Be careful that it doesn't become 'precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little'. When the Lord teaches it comes in like a flood.

 

[kyredneck]

Allan, what's your take on Jn 16:8? Do you believe as 'the many'? That the passage is referring to the 'benign activities of the Holy Spirit among those who hear the Gospel'? 'As dealing with individuals when He regenerates them and they believe'? Or is it something else?.....

Allan, have you chosen not to carry on any further with this topic? If so, that's fine. But I would've liked to have had your take on Jn 16:8.