Sickening and troubling verse.

[JohnDeereFan]

Sickening and troubling verse.

And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. - Leviticus 26:29

There is no justification that can make this a good thing. Why is such a thing in the Bible?

Leave it to Magnetic Poles to call the word of God "sickening".

 

[JohnDeereFan]

These things happen. I read a great book about Leningrad being surrounded by the Germans in WWII once. The city was completely cut off from all supplies for a year and a half. Dogs and cats quickly disappeared from the streets. Horses were killed for food. Hundreds of people were starving to death daily, the city had to quickly clear dead bodies from the streets as cannibalism was occuring. The people were making food out of anything imaginable, boiling shoes to get nourishment from the leather, making bread with sawdust mixed with a little flour and motor oil.

Not to get off the subject, but you might want to check out William Forstchen's book, "One Second After", which describes how people can sink to these things when food is cut off, even for a brief time.

 

[kyredneck]

Occured again in the sieze of Jerusalem in Ad66-70.

Josephus, War of the Jews, Book:6:3:4
4. There was a certain woman that dwelt beyond Jordan, her name was Mary; her father was Eleazar, of the village Bethezob, which signifies the house of Hyssop. She was eminent for her family and her wealth, and had fled away to Jerusalem with the rest of the multitude, and was with them besieged therein at this time. The other effects of this woman had been already seized upon, such I mean as she had brought with her out of Perea, and removed to the city. What she had treasured up besides, as also what food she had contrived to save, had been also carried off by the rapacious guards, who came every day running into her house for that purpose. This put the poor woman into a very great passion, and by the frequent reproaches and imprecations she east at these rapacious villains, she had provoked them to anger against her; but none of them, either out of the indignation she had raised against herself, or out of commiseration of her case, would take away her life; and if she found any food, she perceived her labors were for others, and not for herself; and it was now become impossible for her any way to find any more food, while the famine pierced through her very bowels and marrow, when also her passion was fired to a degree beyond the famine itself; nor did she consult with any thing but with her passion and the necessity she was in. She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, "O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves. This famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us. Yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews." As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed. Upon this the seditious came in presently, and smelling the horrid scent of this food, they threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not show them what food she had gotten ready. She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them, and withal uncovered what was left of her son. Hereupon they were seized with a horror and amazement of mind, and stood astonished at the sight, when she said to them, "This is mine own son, and what hath been done was mine own doing! Come, eat of this food; for I have eaten of it myself! Do not you pretend to be either more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother; but if you be so scrupulous, and do abominate this my sacrifice, as I have eaten the one half, let the rest be reserved for me also." After which those men went out trembling, being never so much aftrighted at any thing as they were at this, and with some difficulty they left the rest of that meat to the mother. Upon which the whole city was full of this horrid action immediately; and while every body laid this miserable case before their own eyes, they trembled, as if this unheard of action had been done by themselves. So those that were thus distressed by the famine were very desirous to die, and those already dead were esteemed happy, because they had not lived long enough either to hear or to see such miseries.

:thumbsup: Right on Grasshopper.......


It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God....

 

[Winman]

Not to get off the subject, but you might want to check out William Forstchen's book, "One Second After", which describes how people can sink to these things when food is cut off, even for a brief time.

Thanks! I can't remember the title of the book I read, it was back in High School, and that was a looooong time ago.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Jughead? Nice.

I am quite aware that God chose the Jews for his people.

So, you are arguing that the Jews were not totally depraved like the rest of mankind? Unlike any other persons who have every lived, you believe they had the ability to hear, understand, and respond positively to God?

I can't wait to hear what your fellow Cals/DoGs say on this. :tongue3:

Alright, I will be nice to you.
Never in any of my posts did I say that only the Jews or the elect have the ability to hear, understand and respond positively to God, before regeneration (added to complete the phrase).

I have stated in some of my posts, repeatedly, loooooooonggg before you came to this board, and once when you were already here, that all men are born at enmity with their Creator, spiritually dead and unresponsive to the things of the Spirit until the Spirit regenerates them, if they are among those whom Christ already redeemed with His blood at the cross, in eternity past as the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world, and in time, at the cross of Calvary.

You got that ?
All, TODOs, tout les hommes, kul, are at enmity.
However, God's own, when regenerated, after the New Birth, are under obligation to submit themselves to the rulership of God, but some don't, and principles on how God deals with His people are written all over the Bible from the Old Testament to the New, and the verses in question are but one of them.

What you do not want to do is to apply them to all men without discrimination because God did not redeem all mankind. He saved His people, and them only.

For those who are not God's people, they have already been judged at the cross, along with Satan, and they are simply awaiting the promulgation of their sentences, which is to happen at the Great White Throne (Revelation 20), although many are not aware of it, and because of their religions and/or lack of it, are being continously deceived by Satan.

 

[Winman]

That was a nice response. Thank you.

Now, I am not saying I agree with you, I don't. But at least I understand your viewpoint a little better.

I see here that many Cals/DoGs see regeneration as the first step in salvation, but not salvation itself. Most non-Cals like myself believe regeneration to be born again, saved. We believe a person is regenerated after believing.

But here is the question I pose to you and others, why is God unable to communicate to the unregenerate?

Communication necessarily involves two parties. If I speak only English and approach someone who only speaks Spanish, we are both unable to communicate.

If that other fellow knows English as well as Spanish, he may understand my responses, but unless he speaks to me in English we still cannot communicate.

So why can't God communicate with the unregenerate? Your doctrine limits God's power in my opinion.

 

[RAdam]

God is able to communicate with whomsoever He wants to. The problem is many don't understand the difference between the external call and the internal call. The bible presents the internal call as always efficacious, but the external call is resistable. Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousnes.

 

[Gina B]

And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. - Leviticus 26:29

There is no justification that can make this a good thing. Why is such a thing in the Bible?

Because a sin was prophesied does not mean it was forced on mankind to perform.

As far as it not being appropriate for young children to read, I agree to a point. In history, kids are taught all about methods of torture. They're taught about what Hitler did to us. They read all about the practices of cannibalism and witchcraft, and we call it educational.

I think what you're experiencing is the result of a tender heart...one that hates violence and evil. That is to be applauded. Far too many people are desensitized to such things, and that is sick and wrong.

I'd love to figure out what is really going on with you and these thoughts. Do you even know? Are you sickened by the evilness of it all, or are you questioning the concept of a god who allows such things to happen? Both are concepts I have had to deal with and still occasionally think about.

 

[Winman]

God is able to communicate with whomsoever He wants to. The problem is many don't understand the difference between the external call and the internal call. The bible presents the internal call as always efficacious, but the external call is resistable. Let favor be showed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousnes.

That is circular reasoning. Those who came got the effectual call. Those who did not come got the general call. You are defining who got which call by whether they came or not.

I have explained this several times using the famous quotation of evolutionists. They speak of the "survival of the fittest".

Do the fittest always survive? Or did many young, fit people die in the earthquake in Haiti, while many older, unfit people survived because they were fortunate to be in a building that didn't collapse?

How about war? Do the fittest always survive? Or do many young fit people die, while older unfit people survive at home?

How about a flood? Does it only kill unfit people? What about a tornado, does it only kill unfit people? Car accidents? How about H1N1? The H1N1 flu virus was more dangerous to young people than older people, did you know that?

But the evolutionist will say the fittest survived.

Do you not now see how this is a fallacy in logic?

 

[Magnetic Poles]

Because a sin was prophesied does not mean it was forced on mankind to perform.

As far as it not being appropriate for young children to read, I agree to a point. In history, kids are taught all about methods of torture. They're taught about what Hitler did to us. They read all about the practices of cannibalism and witchcraft, and we call it educational.

I think what you're experiencing is the result of a tender heart...one that hates violence and evil. That is to be applauded. Far too many people are desensitized to such things, and that is sick and wrong.

I'd love to figure out what is really going on with you and these thoughts. Do you even know? Are you sickened by the evilness of it all, or are you questioning the concept of a god who allows such things to happen? Both are concepts I have had to deal with and still occasionally think about.

Gina, thank you for your reasoned and rational post. I think you are right on both counts. I am at a loss to understand how someone can be so desensitized to such evil. The plight of human beings on this planet burdens my heart deeply. And the unnecessary evil and violence wrought upon people by people only adds to the bad things that happen all by themselves.

I also have found that many stories in the Bible are antithetical to the concept of a heavenly father who loves his children. Your insight is right on target.

 

[AresMan]

And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. - Leviticus 26:29

There is no justification that can make this a good thing. Why is such a thing in the Bible?

This is not a command from God, it is a statement from God about the condition that Israel would be in if they depart from the Law to serve the gods of the Canaanites. It may or may not be hyperbole, but by no means is God condoning such activity.

 

[Alive in Christ]

. . . he asked, wallowing in the luxury of his pride and idolatry.

Oh, C'mon Aaron. Dont *dilly dally* around. Tell us what you REALLY think. :laugh:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. - Leviticus 26:29

There is no justification that can make this a good thing. Why is such a thing in the Bible?

War fare in the ancient world is an awful thing. When Jerusalem was sacked women ate their children because the Romans barracaded the city and did not allow anyone in or out so once the food supply ran out the only ones to eat were other people and that's what happened. Truelly awful. However, it was a reality of warfare in those days.

 

[Robert Snow]

Nevermind.

 

[Robert Snow]

Actually the fact that the Bible records both the good and the bad of GOD's people is evidence that it is the inerrant Word of GOD.

This I can agree on completely! :thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

..... the Romans barracaded the city and did not allow anyone in or out so once the food supply ran out.......

That is not the case at all with Jerusalem in AD 70:

“...During the infighting inside the city walls, a stockpiled supply of dry food was intentionally burned by Jewish leaders to induce the defenders to fight against the siege instead of negotiating peace; as a result many city dwellers and soldiers died of starvation during the siege....”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish–Roman_War

For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith Jehovah; but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbor`s hand, and into the hand of his king; and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. Zech 11:6

49 I came to cast fire upon the earth [the land]; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51 Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth [the land]? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 They shall be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother; mother in law against her daughter in law, and daughter in law against her mother in law. Lu 12

From 'The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation', by Philip Mauro:
( http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=63301&page=9 )

SELF-INFLICTED SUFFERINGS

In the light, therefore, of this comparison of scripture with scripture, we think it plain that the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24:14 was that unparalleled calamity, with its unspeakable sufferings, which befell the city and people in A.D. 70.

In the history of "The Wars of the Jews" by Josephus we have a detailed account, written by an eye witness, of the almost unbelievable sufferings of the Jews during the siege of Jerusalem. To this account we will refer later on; but we wish to state at this point that the distresses of those who were hemmed in by the sudden appearance of the Roman armies were peculiar in this respect, namely, that what they endured was mainly self-inflicted. That is to say, they suffered far more from cruelties and tortures inflicted upon one another, than from the common enemy outside the walls. In this strange feature of the case it was surely "a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation, even to that same time" (#Da 12:1).

What went on within the distressed city calls to mind the words of Isaiah:

"Through the wrath of the Lord of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel (the food) of the fire. No man shall spare his brother. And he shall snatch on the right hand and shall be hungry; and he shall eat on the left hand and not be satisfied; they shall eat every man the flesh of his own arm. Manasseh, Ephraim; and Ephraim, Manasseh. For all this His anger is not turned away, but His wrath is poured out still" (#Isa 9:19-21).

See also: http://www.baptistboard.com/showthre...71#post1489071

 

[kyredneck]

More from Mauro:

At that time various calamities and disturbances began to take place. Bands of robbers infested the country, and in the city there arose an organized company of assassins called Sicarii, who slew men in the daytime, and in the city. This they did chiefly at festivals, when they mingled with the multitudes and, by means of daggers concealed under their garments, they stabbed those who were their enemies. The high priest Jonathan was one of their victims (II 13, 3).

Another class of trouble makers were certain men who, though not thieves or murderers, yet laid waste the happy state of the city no less than did those murderers. These were such men as deceived and deluded the people under pretence of Divine inspiration. It is easy to recognize in these men the false prophets whereof the Lord warned His disciples. Continuing, Josephus says' These prevailed with the multitude to act like madmen and went before them into the wilderness, pretending that God would there show them the signals of liberty (II 13:4).

There was also an Egyptian false prophet, who got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him. These he led about from the wilderness to the mount which is called the mount of Olives. This, according to Josephus, was in the days when Felix was governor. Consequently it was at the time of Paul's last visit to Jerusalem, which calls to mind that the chief captain before whom Paul was taken after the disturbance in the Temple, supposed that he was that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers (#Ac 21:38). It also brings to mind the definite warning of Christ, Wherefore, if they shall say to you, Behold, He is in the desert, go not forth (#Mt 24:26).

Josephus likens the social conditions at that time to those of a body which is thoroughly diseased, in that when trouble subsided in one place it broke out immediately in another. For, says he, a company of deceivers and robbers got together, and persuaded the Jews to revolt, and exhorted them to assert their liberty (id. 6).

About this time Felix was succeeded by Festus (as is also recorded in (#Ac 24:27), and he by Florus, who was the most wicked of all the Roman governors, and the immediate occasion of the war. This was in the twelfth year of Emperor Nero, A.D. 66. Josephus relates that when Cestius Gallus came to Jerusalem at the passover season the people came about him not fewer in number than three millions (II 14:3). This shows the immense numbers which gathered in Jerusalem at that season.

Josephus relates with much detail the atrocities and barbarities which the people suffered at the hands of the soldiers, and describes their agonies and lamentations. On one occasion the soldiers, after plundering the citizens, crucified many of them, the number of those slain (including women and children) being about 3600 on that single occasion. It appears to have been the deliberate purpose of Florus to goad the Jews into a revolt, so that thereby his own acts of plunder and other crimes might be covered up (II 14, 9).


Soon after this, however, the priests were persuaded that they should refuse to receive any gift or sacrifice for any foreigner. And this was the true beginning of our war with the Romans; for they (the temple authorities) rejected the sacrifice of Caesar on this account (II 17, 2).....

There were at that time two parties in Jerusalem. One turbulent faction advocated immediate revolt against the Romans. The other party, led by the priests and the chief of the Pharisees, realizing the madness of the proposal, sought to restrain the seditious element; but finding they would not listen to argument or persuasion, they sent to the governor Florus, and also to Agrippa, for troops to quell the revolt. From that time the fighting began; but the Jews killed one another in numbers far greater than those slain by the soldiers. The Roman garrison was about that time besieged in the fortress of Antonia (in the temple area), and was taken and either slain or dispersed (II 17, 7). A little later another Roman garrison, besieged at Mesada, which had been Herod's stronghold, surrendered under promise that their lives would be spared, but they were treacherously slain after they had laid down their arms (II 17, 10). These actions, of course, aroused the Roman authorities, who began to make preparations to subdue the revolters. In the city of Caesarea (built by Herod the Great), above 20,000 Jews were killed in one hour, and all Caesarea was emptied of its Jewish inhabitants; for Florus caught such as ran away, and sent them to the galleys. This enraged the whole Jewish nation, so that they laid waste the villages of Syria and elsewhere, burning some cities to the ground.

"But," says Josephus, the Syrians were even with the Jews in the multitude of the men they slew. The disorders in all Syria were terrible. Every city was divided into two armies, and the preservation of the one party was in the destruction of the other. So the daytime was spent in shedding of blood, and the night in fear, which was, of the two, the more terrible * * *

It was then common to see cities filled with dead bodies, still lying unburied; those of old men mingled with infants, all scattered about together. Women also lay among them without any covering. You might then see the whole province full of inexpressible calamities. "

In some places the horrors were worse because Jews fought against Jews. In Scythopolis alone above 13,000 were slain at one time (II 18:1 & 2). Josephus relates the case of one prominent man who, because of the terrible things happening all around, and in order to save his family from a worse fate, killed first his father and mother with the sword--they willingly submitting--and afterwards his wife and children, finally taking his own life (II 18:3). This incident will give us at least a faint idea of the awful conditions of those 'days of vengeance, and of wrath upon this people.

Many pages are filled with accounts of the slaughter of the Jews in various places. Reading them we are impressed with the Saviour's saying that except those days should be shortened there should no flesh be saved (#Mt 24:22). The calamities were beyond description. Thus, at Alexandria, where the Jews had enjoyed the greatest privileges for centuries, they were incited to rise in revolt by the seditious element, and were destroyed unmercifully, and this, their destruction, was complete. Houses were first plundered of what was in them, and then set on fire by the Romans. No mercy was shown to the infants, and no regard had to the aged; but they went on with the slaughter of persons of every age, till all the place was overflowed with blood, and fifty thousand of them lay dead in heaps (II l8:8).

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10:31

....... it is indeed a very sickening and troubling thing to incur His wrath.........

 

[Gina B]

What gets me about us humans is that this violence happens, and we respond to it by making up more of it in the forms of violent movies, plays, and books, then pay to bring images of it right into our homes. That is SO weird! It's that type of thing that reminds me of how depraved and sick human beings are WITHOUT God and a set of moral absolutes. You have to admit that the morals laid out by the Christian faith are things we'd pretty much be at a loss without.

So why doesn't God, in his all powerful ability, stop some of the nastiness from happening? Why is it that my daughter was born with a heart defect, blind in one eye, and now we're looking at the possibility of her having a debilitating form of lupus?
Why was I raped when before I even entered first grade? What would an all powerful God allow this to happen?
Somewhere in Haiti, young children suffered long and excruciatingly painful deaths very recently and still lay about suffering without enough proper attention.
Young girls are sold to satisfy depraved men, and end up walking about filled with sexual diseases before they even hit their teens.

God has the power to stop this. He doesn't. Should I doubt his goodness? I don't anymore. I used too. However, I still question His methods at times, although after some years of dealing with such questioning, I can usually see how it's our ways, not his that are causing/have caused what I see and despise.

We ARE told that he can and does take the evil man puts into the world and turn it to good for those that love HIM.
I've seen that in action. How?

What good comes out of Anna's problems? My daughter has opened the eyes of more than a few physicians. We have come across people over the years who really needed someone to talk to, or whose child was having a heart surgery while mine was simply having her heart looked at.

So isn't God somehow exhibiting cruelty by not stopping this? Well, why should he? Does he owe us that? What caused her condition? I have to suspect that I've got some nasty genes. My mother was a heroine addict, and Anna is having a lot of the same health problems I do. My brothers and sisters...almost all of them have heart anomolies. I believe this is what was meant when it was said that sins are passed down from generation to generation. The sins of my mother affected me and now are affecting my children. Do I blame God for not forcing my mother to live right, or do I blame the sin of humans?

What good comes out of a child being raped or forced into prostitution? What about violently killed?
Usually none that I can see, except foundations get started and people become more aware of safety issues. In my case there was some good....Often I am extremely tuned into kids who have been abused, and try to reach out to them. I know what they're thinking and how they feel. That is a gift. It is rare that someone understands how much a couple simple words spoken to a severely abused child can positively affect them...they will cling to those words and carry them in their hearts all their lives.

I believe God created humans and then gave them the right to live their lives as they saw fit. He gave them the knowledge of what was right. It was rejected, and the decay of the earth and of the human body and mind followed right along. Look at any violent and wrong thing that happens on this earth and it is ALWAYS preceded by man's sin.

I look at my kids. Can I stop them from doing wrong? Sure! Of course it would require taking away their ability to think for themselves, keeping them in isolation, and never letting them completely understand the concept of freedom or sense of self.
That means my kids are going to make some wrong decisions. These decisions will cause them grief and suffering, and most likely will also cause some hurt and pain to others. Most likely it won't be on a massive scale, but it will be a miniature shadow of what happens when people do wrong things on a massive scale. Take the holocaust. The sin, pride, and refusal to base moral behavior on Christian morals had ghastly results.

It's bad. It's nasty. It's horrible.

But it isn't the end of the story. Keep reading.

:flower:

 

[Marcia]

I have read this before, but in my study today, it really jumped out at me and made me sick to my stomach. There are things in the Bible that kids should not be allowed to read. If this were in a grade school primer, most of us would be rightfully outraged.

But since it is God's word, there is nothing shameful about it. And it was a prophecy of a consequence of great sin.

The OT often gives us a picture of the severe consequences of sin because man so easily rationalizes it and makes it less than what it is. And seeing these consequences and yet to know God's mercy through Jesus Christ gives us, hopefully, a greater appreciation of and thankfulness for God's mercy.

 

[Marcia]

I am at a loss to understand how someone can be so desensitized to such evil. The plight of human beings on this planet burdens my heart deeply. And the unnecessary evil and violence wrought upon people by people only adds to the bad things that happen all by themselves.

I also have found that many stories in the Bible are antithetical to the concept of a heavenly father who loves his children. Your insight is right on target.

But just as we are upset at terrible things that happen to people, as believers, we should be equally upset and sickened by sin. God loves but He is righteous and cannot abide sin - any sin. It is only because of His mercy and grace that there is redemption through Jesus Christ - we do not deserve that.

The consequences of sin do not contradict God's love.