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Why are there so many religions?

Winman

Active Member
You asked the question, "If God is sovereign and controlling every event, then why did he create so many false religions". Whether God is sovereign or not, He did not create religions.

Well, suffice it to say that hypercalvinism doesn't accurately reflect mainline Reformed thinking any more than hyperarmenianism reflect mainline noncalvinist thinking. But the error anti-calvinists commonly make is to confuse total depravity with man's lack of free will. However, total depravity doesn't mean man has no free will. It means that man's will is subject to his nature.

If the unregenerate man can only do wrong, then he is not free. Freedom by definition means;

1. the state of being free or at liberty rather than in confinement or under physical restraint: He won his freedom after a retrial.
2. exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc.
3. the power to determine action without restraint.

If man is confined or restrained by his nature, then he does not have free will. You change the very definition of freedom.

And if man truly had free will before Adam and Eve sinned, but not afterward, then who is responsible? God is, because you believe God changed man's nature.
 

Johnv

New Member
If the unregenerate man can only do wrong, then he is not free.
Again, same error in understanding. Reformed Theology does not assert that the unregenerate man can only do wrong. I've stated this before, but some anti-calvinists are more interested in holding onto their misunderstanding of calvinism than they are in learning about calvinism.
 
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Winman

Active Member
Again, same error in understanding. Reformed Theology does not assert that the unregenerate man can only do wrong. I've stated this before, but some anti-calvinists are more interested in holding onto their misunderstanding of calvinism than they are in learning about calvinism.

Give me a break, I've seen numerous posts by Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers here that say an unregenerate man cannot do good, any deeds that would appear good are done with the wrong motives.

Maybe all you Reformed folks should get together and decide what you believe.

(2) In his total rebellion everything man does is sin.

In Romans 14:23 Paul says, "Whatever is not from faith is sin." Therefore, if all men are in total rebellion, everything they do is the product of rebellion and cannot be an honor to God, but only part of their sinful rebellion. If a king teaches his subjects how to fight well and then those subjects rebel against their king and use the very skill he taught them to resist him, then even those skills become evil.

John Piper
 
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Johnv

New Member
Give me a break...
I am, which is why I'm not lumping you into the group of anticalvinists that just like to argue. Perhaps I was wrong in doing so.
Maybe all you Reformed folks should get together and decide what you believe.
The same could be said for the Arminians. Just because there's disagreement between arminians, that in and of itself isn't a indicator that an arminian position is wrong. Likewise, just because there's disagreement between calvinists, that doesn't in and of itself isn't an indicator that calvinism is wrong.
 

Winman

Active Member
I am, which is why I'm not lumping you into the group of anticalvinists that just like to argue. Perhaps I was wrong in doing so.

The same could be said for the Arminians. Just because there's disagreement between arminians, that in and of itself isn't a indicator that an arminian position is wrong. Likewise, just because there's disagreement between calvinists, that doesn't in and of itself isn't an indicator that calvinism is wrong.

I agree with you here, I certainly don't agree with all non-Cals as I like to call myself. I don't agree with Arminianism, because I do not believe you can lose your salvation, I believe in Preservation of the Saints.

Jesus said men could give good gifts to their children. And I believe Jesus truly meant "good" when he said this.

People take the one verse where Jesus said there is "none good but God" to an extreme. I think Jesus here was speaking of absolute sinless perfection. He must have, because he would not have then said men could give good gifts to their children. He also said some have good and honest hearts.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Before Nathaniel believed on the Lord, Jesus said he had "no guile", which means he was completely honest.

John 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!

Jesus gave Nathaniel a tremendous compliment here, saying there was no guile in him. Nathaniel was a sinner no doubt, but he was an extremely honest man.
 

Johnv

New Member
People take the one verse where Jesus said there is "none good but God" to an extreme. I think Jesus here was speaking of absolute sinless perfection. He must have, because he would not have then said men could give good gifts to their children. He also said some have good and honest hearts.
You make a valid and compelling point here, one with which I agree.
 

J.D.

Active Member
Site Supporter
No matter how a Calvinists may break it down, it's important to remember that Total Depravity does not mean that a given person, whether saved or not, is as evil as they can be, nor does it mean that they can never do good. It means that no one can do good unless they are enabled to do good by God. It also means that they cannot convert themselves, that is the work of God.
 
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kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The OP is a slanderous strawman against the vast majority of those who hold to certain doctrines known as Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace. I've noticed this Board has degenerated over the last few months in its tenor and grace, and this OP is a prime example of such rancor.

Andy, I agree wholeheartedly. It's disgusting. I reported this OP:

Is this acceptable to the moderators? To allow Winman to refer to the Calvinists as DoGs ?

Here is a question for the Cals/DoGs.....

I know that "Cals" means Calvinists.

What does DoGs Mean?

Attempt #2

What does "DoGs" mean.

Doctrine of Grace

It is his way of indirectly insulting those who hold on to the Doctrine of Grace, whether he admits it or not, and I am one of those......

The OP is a slanderous strawman against the vast majority of those who hold to certain doctrines known as Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace. I've noticed this Board has degenerated over the last few months in its tenor and grace, and this OP is a prime example of such rancor.
 

zrs6v4

Member
But this makes me ask, why does God not allow unregenerate man to do good?

I realize this is an old question, but Winman you are looking at it from the wrong angle. You are assuming that God is preventing people from doing good.

God allows them to do whatever they want so to speak, and there choice is not Him. So it isn't God fighting sinners off who want to do good and love Him, but it is more like God is standing before them with His arms open and they cant see Him and don't want Him. An unregenerate person doesnt seek God nor want God, and this is what prevents them from coming to God- Themselves.

The OP kind of causes me to realize what it looks like when unregenerate man try to find God or want God. The closest they can come is to decieve themselves and make their own god that they can control or that fits their religious status. The very fact that there are millions of religions and beliefs shows me 2 things-

1. man has an inner knowledge that there is a higher power as Romans 1 says
2. Man is totally depraved and has no idea how to deal with God other than trying to be his own god and have God fit in his agenda.
 

Winman

Active Member
I realize this is an old question, but Winman you are looking at it from the wrong angle. You are assuming that God is preventing people from doing good.

That is plain false. According to your doctrine man had the free will to do good until Adam and Eve sinned, and then God cursed them so that they no longer had the ability to seek God or believe him.

This would make God 100% responsible. This would absolutely be God preventing them from doing good, there is no way around it.
 

RAdam

New Member
God hasn't taken away man's free will. Man still has it. Unfortunately, the will of man is affected by his nature. An unregenerate person, one Paul refers to as in the flesh, will not seek God, love God, love God's law, etc. He will follow the course of this world. That does not mean that an unregenerate person will be as evil as he/she can be, but it does mean that person will not love the things of God and try to please Him. Paul says, "I delight in the law of God after the inward man." If you delight in God's law, want to keep it, want to serve God, it is because God has changed your heart and written this law on your heart. Unregenerate man has no desire for these things.

As far as an unregenerate man doing good, I yield to Paul in Romans 8:7 - So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. And again in Hebrews 11:6 - Without faith it is impossible to please God. An unregenerate person will not please God. They will not seek to please God. "They that are in the flesh do mind the things of the flesh."
 

Winman

Active Member
God hasn't taken away man's free will. Man still has it. Unfortunately, the will of man is affected by his nature

I understand what you Cals keep saying. I get it.

But you fail to acknowledge that according to your doctrine it was God himself who cursed man's nature. This would make God 100% responsible.

It is you that cannot grasp this very simple concept.
 

RAdam

New Member
It is man that brought about his own downfall. Did God make Adam sin? No. Then how is God responsible for the effects of that sin? God told Adam that there would be consequences for breaking that one commandment, Adam did it anyway.
 

zrs6v4

Member
But you fail to acknowledge that according to your doctrine it was God himself who cursed man's nature. This would make God 100% responsible.

It is you that cannot grasp this very simple concept.

What is your view on the world? Why is it so evil? what happened after the fall of mankind?
 

pinoybaptist

Active Member
Site Supporter
There's nothing in Reformed Theology that asserts that.

But if winman says so, Reformed Theology must bow itself down and beat its chest and proclaim its guilt.
Very subtle, this guy.
Ask him to point the finger at the one who said exactly what he says was said, and he can't.
He misquotes everybody, calls God evil and the source of evil, then says it's the other one who called God evil.
 

Johnv

New Member
To winman's defense, I don't think the use of "DoG" was intentional. Let's not accuse him of it if this was not the case.
 

Winman

Active Member
Some Calvinists declare that God is the cause and author of sin. This from Dr. Samuel Hopkins.

Let us continue the testimony of Dr. Hopkins: he says, "God does superintend and direct with regard to every instance of sin. He orders how much sin there shall be, and effectually restrains and prevents all that which he would not have take place. Men are, with respect to this, absolutely under his direction and control." From this he proceeds to show that sin could not have originated in the creature, for why should the will put forth a volition contrary to the divinely constituted nature? Nor can it be in the sin itself, for upon that supposition the effect is its own cause, hence we must look to Him who is the First Cause of everything; speaking of the sinner he says, "Something must have taken place previous to his sin, and in which the sinner had no hand with which his sin was so connected as to render it certain that sin would take place just as it does;" his conclusion is, "Moral evil could not exist unless it were the will of God, and his choice that it should exist rather than not. And from this it is certain that it is wisest and best in his view that sin should exist. And in thus willing what was wisest and best, and foreordaining that it should come to pass, God exercised his wisdom and goodness; and in this view and sense is really the origin and cause of moral evil, as really as he is of the existence of anything that he wills, however inconceivable the mode and manner of the origin and existence of this event may be, and however different from that of any other."

So, excuse me if I mistakenly believed that some Calvinists say God is the cause of sin and evil.
 
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The Archangel

Well-Known Member
But if winman says so, Reformed Theology must bow itself down and beat its chest and proclaim its guilt.
Very subtle, this guy.
Ask him to point the finger at the one who said exactly what he says was said, and he can't.
He misquotes everybody, calls God evil and the source of evil, then says it's the other one who called God evil.

And he says that "Calvinists reject Christ."

You may convince yourself that you are choosing Christ, but you are not. The real you rejects Christ by your own doctrine.

Sad, indeed.

The Archangel
 
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