Regeneration does precede Redemption

[Skandelon]

The difference is that the Calvinist rightly believes that belief is a response to God's initiating work.

I'm done with all the textual and grammatical gymnastics of this thread, but I had to correct this one statement. We all believe that faith is a response to God's initiating work. Which I know would be easier to ignore because it creates a further burden on you to prove that not only is the initiative work of regeneration prior to faith, but also irresistibly applied. Being that the Holy Spirit is the one who does the work of regeneration and is spoken of as being resisted (Acts 7:51 etc), this is not something that can blown off.

If regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit which is the ONLY means by which man might believe then you need to answer these questions:

1. Why does scripture speak of the HS being resisted? If the HS's work of regenerating people is the ONLY work of God that can have any real effect, then what work of the HS are the people resisting and why does the HS even bother with that work knowing full well it can have no effect?

2. Why does God express his longing for and patience with people to become willing, if indeed He is the one who makes them willing through regenerating them? What is he waiting on or longing for that He himself is not responsible for? (Rm 10:21; Matt 23:37; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 Tim 2:4)

3. Conversely, why does God express his wrath and frustration with people who refuse to believe and obey, if indeed that can only be accomplished through an irresistible act of God?

For example:

Gen 6:
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal... The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain.

There a dozens of passages like these throughout the old and new testament that never have any qualification suggesting that God is not actually "contending with man." Or that God is not really longing for them to change.

4. Once men are regenerated it is clear that some express more faith than others (ie doubting Thomas). Jesus even rebukes them for their "little faith." Why? Are some believers "better" than others or has God given some Christians more faith than he has given to others? If the latter, then why does Christ rebuke them? Shouldn't he rebuke the Father for not granting them more faith? Please expound.

5. If God does it all, why does scripture continually honor and praise people throughout history for their faith and obedience? (i.e. Heb 11) Why does God say, "Well done my good and faithful servant," instead of, "Well done me?" On what basis to you have a system of reward and punishment if indeed God is the determiner of all things?

Thanks for your time, and I wonder if you will complete our discussion that you left a while back? I know we were getting beyond the normal "pat answers" of the Calvinistic system, but that is where you have to go if you want to really expand your knowledge and grow in your faith. Blessings.

 

[RAdam]

If you would like to start another thread on people having eternal life prior to/before believing - then go right ahead. However this thread isn't dealing with such nor is it the view of Archangel, the originator of the thread, who is arguing for regeneration preceding redemption/eternal life.

Translation: You claimed my view was not in line with scripture, to which I promptly proved that I was in line with scripture. Then you state that I'm getting off on a side tangent. I'll kindly remind you that there was a discussion on Ephesians 1:13 and I presented a view on that text, most notably the word "sealed". You picked a portion of that text out and said I was wrong and not in line with scripture. I then responded to that post.

If you are going to challenge what I have presented, then do it. But don't challenge it and then say, "this thread isn't about that."

 

[RAdam]

It's interesting that you present Matthew 23:37. A few verses earlier Jesus had this to say to those pharisees: "Ye serpent, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" Doesn't look to me like Jesus is being longsuffering and inviting people to come to Him. Doesn't look to me like Jesus is giving these people a way to be saved from the damnation of hell if they are willing.

 

[psalms109:31]

wise learned

Matthew 23:37
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

 

[RAdam]

Who would not? The children? No, Jerusalem, by which He means the wicked religious rulers of the people, who shut up the kingdom of God and wouldn't suffer men to enter therein.

 

[Marcia]

Analysis of 1 John 5v1​

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
paV o pisteuwn oti ihsouV estin o cristoV ek tou qeou gegennhtai kai paV o agapwn ton gennhsanta agapa kai ton gegennhmenon ex autou

I have been asked by a participant on this thread to weigh in here, since I am a Greek teacher and a translator. So I’ll analyze this verse, but before doing so I want to point out that I almost never participate in the Cal/Arm discussions on the BB. So I’m weighing as a favor to a friend, and don’t plan to spend much time here, though I’ll answer any questions about my Greek analysis.

First of all, consider the substantival use of the participle (using the participle as a noun) for “to believe”, o pisteuwn. It is best to just think of this as a noun, since it is after all the subject of the sentence. Brooks and Winbury say, “The participle, like an adjective, may be used in the place of a noun or other substantive. The participle itself then functions as a noun” (Syntax of NT Greek, p. 130). Daniel Wallace doesn’t mention this particular verse, but comments on a similar structure: “The aspect of the present participle can be diminished if the particular context requires it. Thus, for example,o baptizwn in Mark 1:4 does not mean ‘the one who continually baptizes” but simply ‘the baptizer.’ Indeed, it cannot mean this in Mark 6:14, for otherwise John would be baptizing without a head” (Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 620—love that humor!).

I won’t take time to explain the current debate in Greek circles on verbal aspect and aktionsart, which is pretty complicated (and my son is much more up on that than I am). But I do believe that here, the tense and verbal aspect of the present participle (Is the action continuative? Is it present?) have little play. If John were a 21st century American writing in English when he wrote 1 John, he would have simply said, “Every believer…,” since there is no Greek noun meaning simply “believer.” You have to use the participle for “to believe” in koine Greek.

To relate this to the current discussion, I don’t see how 1 John has anything to do with the order of salvation. I think John would be surprised to read this thread! He was simply saying, “Hey, if someone is a believer in Jesus as the Christ, they’ve been born again!” And of course it is God Who did it, but looking at the grammar, there is nothing in this verse that will prove that regeneration comes before faith.

I don’t think there is a need here for me to comment on the verb tenses for “born again.” To me they are irrelevant to the argument on the order of salvation once the substantival use of the participle is understood—the participle as noun.

Oh, and by the way, you guys with your snow talk are all wimps. We’ve had 14 feet so far this winter in Asahikawa! (Think a Japanese version of Siberia.) Nothing to it! :tongue3:

God bless.

Thanks, John! I was not the one who asked you to weigh in, but I was thinking of it.

This is what I said it is saying - Everyone who believes has been born again.

 

[Marcia]

You'll have to forgive me for calling this a cop-out. It is all together possible that those who take the alternate view from mine go against the grammar (especially, because I've never read a grammarian or a commentator who disagrees with me on this verse).

John of Japan said it for me! In fact, that is what I have been saying all along that it is saying.

I live somewhere in Washington County, Maryland. I'm afraid we'll get walloped. I'm afraid our Sunday service is in jeopardy...and a very-looked-forward-to meeting on Saturday. Oh well. The skiers (of which I am not one) will love it.

If I may ask, what church in DC do you go to?

I am not a skier either!

I am a member of Cherrydale Baptist Church in Arlington.

 

[John of Japan]

You'll have to forgive me for calling this a cop-out. It is all together possible that those who take the alternate view from mine go against the grammar (especially, because I've never read a grammarian or a commentator who disagrees with me on this verse).

Archangel, please share with me what grammarian you know of that agrees with you on this verse.

I can't find a grammarian who even comments on Piper's view (and yours) of the verse. I've checked Robertson (both A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research and A Short Grammar of the Greek New Testament, his intermediate grammar), Wallace's Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Brooks and Winbery on Syntax of New Testament, Dana and Mantey's A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament. None of them comment on any of the grammar of 1 John 5:1. Only Wallace mentions the verse in his index (three times), but those mentions are only in passing.

Please also point me to a commentator who agrees with you. I have checked all of my Greek commentators, and found none: A. T. Robertson, Alford's classic five volume set, Wuest, Vincent, the New Testament Study Bible.

 

[TCGreek]

Yes, everyone who believes in Christ has been born again. That is not evidence for regeneration before belief; it's saying the proof is in the pudding.

I am a believer in Christ; therefore, I have been born again/born of God.

Even as a Calvinist I have to agree with Marcia.

I use to think this was iron-clad for regeneration preceding faith in Jesus, but this verse might not be teaching such.

In fact, John is speaking of people who are already believers.

Calvinists need to find another prooftext.

 

[psalms109:31]

key to knowl;edge

Isaiah 33:6
He will be the sure foundation for your times, a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge; the fear of the LORD is the key to this treasure.


Luke 11:52
"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

 

[Allan]

Isaiah 33:6
He will be the sure foundation for your times, a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge; the fear of the LORD is the key to this treasure.


Luke 11:52
"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

Care to elaborate?

 

[psalms109:31]

RAdam said

Who would not? The children? No, Jerusalem, by which He means the wicked religious rulers of the people, who shut up the kingdom of God and wouldn't suffer men to enter therein.

and I was wondering if RAdam was referring to these scriptures?

Originally Posted by psalms109:31
Isaiah 33:6
He will be the sure foundation for your times, a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge; the fear of the LORD is the key to this treasure.


Luke 11:52
"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

 

[Allan]

RAdam said

and I was wondering if RAdam was referring to these scriptures?

Originally Posted by psalms109:31
Isaiah 33:6
He will be the sure foundation for your times, a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge; the fear of the LORD is the key to this treasure.


Luke 11:52
"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

OHhhh... :thumbs: - missed that post

 

[Winman]

If regeneration is a work of the Holy Spirit which is the ONLY means by which man might believe then you need to answer these questions:

The scriptures are absolutely clear that a person can believe without the indwelling Holy Spirit.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

No one who believed on Jesus during his ministry (and there were thousands) received the Holy Spirit until after Jesus was resurrected and glorified. The scriptures are clear, it says "the Holy Ghost was not yet given".

John 2:11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 7:31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
All of these people (and many more) believed on Jesus before the Holy Spirit was given to believers.

 

[RAdam]

I think by the Holy Ghost it means the gifts of the Holy Ghost. When Jesus ascended on high He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men. He gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers. On the day of Pentacost were these gifts given to the church.

Peter in Acts 15 says that God gave the gentiles he preached to in Acts 10 the Holy Ghost, even as He had given to the jews. He is referring to when the gentiles spoke in tongues, the same gift given to the jews on the day of Pentacost.

 

[Winman]

I think by the Holy Ghost it means the gifts of the Holy Ghost. When Jesus ascended on high He led captivity captive and gave gifts unto men. He gave some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers. On the day of Pentacost were these gifts given to the church.

Peter in Acts 15 says that God gave the gentiles he preached to in Acts 10 the Holy Ghost, even as He had given to the jews. He is referring to when the gentiles spoke in tongues, the same gift given to the jews on the day of Pentacost.

That is pure speculation on your part ("I think"), and is totally unscriptural. The scriptures say the Holy Ghost or Spirit was not given until Jesus was glorified which took place when he ascended to heaven after his resurrection. Yet the scriptures show many people believing on Jesus before he was crucified.

It is sad when people try to dismiss the very simple and clear teaching of scripture to support a view.

 

[RAdam]

How is that unscriptural? I showed you an instance of where nearly the same phrasing was used by Peter to refer to gifts of the Holy Ghost being bestowed upon gentiles he preached to.

As far as your position goes, Paul disproved that in Galatians 4. He says that Isaac was born after the Spirit.

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks for participating, JoJ! The strange thing is, not having a command of the Greek like Arch ,Allan or yourself, I came to that same conclusion from just reading the English with an open mind :laugh:

Sometimes the Scriptures are not as complicated as people think! :saint:

 

[Winman]

How is that unscriptural? I showed you an instance of where nearly the same phrasing was used by Peter to refer to gifts of the Holy Ghost being bestowed upon gentiles he preached to.

As far as your position goes, Paul disproved that in Galatians 4. He says that Isaac was born after the Spirit.

Well, the scriptures flat out say that the Holy Ghost was not given to believers yet, that is difficult to argue with.

There were some people who had the Holy Spirit, primarily the prophets. But now every believer has the indwelling Holy Spirit. The Spirit could leave a person in the OT such as king Saul, or even Ezekiel the prophet which says the Spirit entered him in chapter 2 and then it says it entered him in chapter 3. So obviously the Spirit did not remain in him. David prayed that God would not take away the Holy Spirit from him in Psalms 51, something no modern believer would ever need pray.

But the vast majority of believers in the OT did not have the Holy Spirit.

 

[RAdam]

Paul states in Romans 8 that the differentiating factor between a regenerate person and an unregenerate person is whether the Holy Spirit dwells in that person. If the Holy Spirit didn't dwell in all born again children of God in the OT, then you've got a major problem with scripture.