There is no linear order mentioned, so that must be read into the text.
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Regeneration does precede Redemption
- Thread starter The Archangel
- Start date
Are you saying man can possess spiritual life and be in union with God without having eternal life?
FWIW - I believe having spiritual life enables a person to come into union with Christ Jesus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxxCn5Yk23M
Click on the following link to watch a short video which does a pretty good job of answering your question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW5RIRgW9y4&feature=related
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Scripture states spiritual life is salvation, it is found in Christ who is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
In my understanding spiritual life refers to regeneration, and salvation refers to eternal life.
Since I believe regeneration precedes faith, then it logically follows that eternal life isn't possessed immediately upon being regenerated (given spiritual life), but rather upon an exercise of faith by the individual who has been regenerated.
Truth is not relative, and we cannot redefine terms if Scripture (which is immutable truth) has already defined them for us. If your understanding does not square with Scripture, it is your understanding that needs to go.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Webdog,
Actually there is a linear order. The sentence is a third-class conditional sentence so, by definition, it is saying "If A (born again), then B (seeing the Kingdom)." Seeing the kingdom does not happen without being born again.
Blessings,
The Archangel
It is not placing regeneration prior to faith, however.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Well, yea, it is. The verb (and adverb) born again is passive signifying that the subject cannot do this to himself or herself. So, when this is coupled with the third-class conditional statement, the text is saying "unless God 'borns' someone again, that someone cannot see the kingdom..."
Blessings,
The Archangel
Personally, I believe my statements receive the support of Scripture, yet I respect others who disagree with my view, or have differing views. The views I currently hold have only been obtained through many years of much prayerful Bible Study.
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Excellent post
Your explanation still does not support that. I agree it is God doing the regenerating and it is not us. I also agree that one needs to be born again from God to see the kingdom. None of this has anything to do nor supports pre-faith regeneration.
If you have scriptural support, surely you can supply it stating spiritual life is not salvation.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Sure it does. You just don't want to 'hear' it. You said "If your understanding does not square with Scripture, it is your understanding that needs to go." I have shown you, grammatically, how your own understanding does not square with scripture and you dismiss it out of hand rather than try to tell me why the grammar supports your position.
The truth of the matter is this: This verse shows an "if-then" linear argument (which you seem to agree with here). It also shows God's action in the protasis (His regenerating work) and our subsequent ability in the apodosis (the ability to see the kingdom).
Webdog, I love you buddy, but you've got to do some wicked grammatical gymnastics to dismiss this verse.
Blessings,
The Archangel
In my understanding, regeneration precedes faith (belief).
John 1:13 born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
"From the above verse it becomes clear that being born again comes not through a humans decision. If we posit that faith or our belief is required to be born again, then how would we explain the verse above, which says our decision does not play a part in our being born again? Belief being a decision would also be excluded as a condition for being born again since God doesn't believe for us."
Conclusion, faith does not bring about spiritual birth which comes at regeneration (new birth), and therefore must differ from eternal life which is only received by a human response of faith.
No, verse 12 shows the new birth is only given to those who first believe.
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
You cannot isolate verse 13 from verse 12. Verse 12 explains that to those persons who receive Jesus and believe on his name, to those persons God gives the power or authority to become the sons of God. Then verse 13 explains this becoming a son of God as being born again or regenerated and shows it is 100% a work of God. We cannot in any way make ourselves born again, yet God has promised to perform this work for those who believe on Jesus.
So faith again precedes regeneration.
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
Do a word study. The words "born of God" are in the passive voice, which basically means God is acting and man is passive.
The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, "The boy was hit by the ball," the boy receives the action.
I understand these verses, it is you that does not understand. Verse 12 says that to those who receive and believe on Jesus's name, to them God gives the power or authority to become the sons of God.
Verse 13 is a continuation as shown by the word "which". Now the scripture is explaining the action that God performed in giving them the power to become a son of God. It is a new birth which man cannot possibly perform.
When it says "not of the will of the flesh, or the will of man" it is not referring to the receiving and believing done by the believer, it is referring to God giving them the power or authority to become a son of God, being born again or regenerated.
What did Paul say to the Philipian jailer when he asked what he must do to be saved?
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
How could Paul in all sincerety and honesty tell the Philipian jailer to believe if he was not able without the regeneration of the Holy Spirit? But notice Paul does not even mention the Holy Spirit in his answer, only tells him to believe. And why does a regenerate person need to believe on Christ? Is a regenerate person ever lost? Can you be regenerated and spiritually dead at the same time? Was Paul telling a regenerate man to believe to be saved? That's absurd.
And if Calvinism were true, Paul would have had to tell him to do nothing whatsoever, and that if he was one of the fortunate elect God would regenerate him and give him the ability to have faith and believe on Christ. And further, to be 100% honest, Paul would have to tell this man that he cannot be sure if God will ever regenerate him or not.
So Paul, the greatest apostle of them all, did not understand regeneration? He was careless and forgot to mention that a person must be regenerated by the Spirit to believe? Or was he purposely misleading this poor man?
Which is it?
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BaptistBob
New Member
It basically means "experience," and is parallel with "enter" in verse 5. However, it follows faith, and is not a prerequitiste.