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Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
What are you talking about, WD?
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Regeneration does precede Redemption
- Thread starter The Archangel
- Start date
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Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved--
What are you talking about, WD?
David Michael Harris
Active Member
Hey WebDog, love the new avatar. Well cool.
Why didn't you highlight the rest? "...together with Christ"
A plain reading of that is saying when we were separated from God due to OUR trespasses and sins (there goes Augustine's theory...
), God made us alive (regeneration) through faith (with Christ). Pretty plain and easy to understand.
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Thanks, Dave and Busters circa 2004
Why didn't you highlight the rest? "...together with Christ"
A plain reading of that is saying when we were separated from God due to OUR trespasses and sins (there goes Augustine's theory...
Your plain reading is different from my plain reading. This looks like to me that we were dead (helpless, and devoid of spiritual life) IN (not because of: something like "dead, wallowing in trespasses and sin"), and God MADE us alive, TOGETHER in Christ (referring to the universal church. We get added to that life, as we are regenerated).
This says nothing about being "chosen" in Christ. Only the results of our being chosen, is that God makes us alive, all together, in Christ.
Paul never intends spiritual death to mean "devoid of spiritual life". His intention is clearly separation from God.
Your "plain reading" seems to be anything but. I do not know how someone can approach that text with "we were helpless and devoid of spiritual life in sin(you still have the problem of OUR trespasses and sins) and God made us alive with the universal church".
Let the reader decide for themselves, but it seems you clearly interpret that passage using your theology instead of with an open mind.
BaptistBob
New Member
It's easily explainable, as most commentators note, due to the fact that this section describes the love within the family of God.
Those unbelievers who broke away from the body of believers also claimed to be born of God, yet they do not love the members of God's family. The author, however, argues that those believing in the Christ love their siblings because they love their father. Everyone who believes, therefore, relates to their siblings with love because they have been born into this family. This is "fictive family" language, and a common way of describing relationships in the ancient world (read anything by David Desilva).
Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ ---> has been born from God.
And everyone loving the [One] having fathered---> is loving the [one] having been born from him.
This is how those who are believing----> relate to those that are part of the family of God. If your brother is one who is believing, he his born of God, and is therefore has been made member of your same family - a brother!- whom you should love because you have the same father.
Why doesn't the author talk about the metaphysics of conversion here (which would only be logical, given your interpretation)? Because it isn't the topic. Rather, this is a continuation of the immediately preceding exhortation: "...the [one] loving God should be loving his brother also." 5:1 explains why his is so: You both have been born into the same family, as is the case with everyone who is believing.
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Galatians 3:14 shows that faith precedes regeneration.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
This verse clearly shows that the Holy Spirit is received through faith, so faith necessarily precedes regeneration.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
This verse clearly shows that the Holy Spirit is received through faith, so faith necessarily precedes regeneration.
I think another understanding is not a linear order, but the means of the promise.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Why didn't you highlight the rest? "...together with Christ"
A plain reading of that is saying when we were separated from God due to OUR trespasses and sins (there goes Augustine's theory...
No! A plain reading of the passage Ephesians 2:1-8, or at face value as Ryrie claims to read Scripture, is that the gift of faith follows regeneration.
:laugh: Whatever you say.
Where in scripture is being baptized in the Holy Spirit used synonymously with being brought back to life (reborn)? These are two different things. You are reborn (which includes, among other things, God giving you faith), which purifies you; the Holy Spirit then indwells you.
The Holy Spirit does not enter unclean vessels.
Winman is persistent/consistent in this error. He does not/will not recognize the difference between the two.
BaptistBob
New Member
Right. People are justified by faith, first. Which was his point.
Romans 4:5
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
As for "dead in trespasses and sins," it was a common reference in both pagan and non-pegan religions to being separated from God due to immorality. It was nothing more. Josephus explains it well, with no contradiction in Scripture. Paul's perspective is that everyone, including believers destined for heaven who lived prior to Christ, had to await Christ to remedy that situation.
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Justification logically proceeds from faith, yes. But faith is part of being born again, where God gives us spiritual life.
God justifies. He is the active agent. God "justifies" us, by regenerating us, which causes us to have faith, which causes us (by Christ's blood)to be cleansed, which allows us to be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. This is a work of God, with no input from us (as active agent), from beginning to end.
BaptistBob
New Member
That's an assertion of your conclusion. I understood your conclusion before you restated it. But with regard to what I said, non sequitur.
In any event, the clear teaching of scripture is that regeneration and indwelling are two different things. Regeneration results in faith: indwelling is a result of justification, which comes after faith, which comes after regeneration. There is no scripture which contradicts this.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Faith
Faith comes from the words of Jesus you cannot have the regeneration until you receive the faith. Faith has to come before regeneration. You didn't wake up and was regenerated and have faith, you didn't even know of the faith until you first heard the words of faith that isn't yours it came from the words of Jesus.
Getting regenerated without the words of faith is not scriptural
Faith comes from the words of Jesus you cannot have the regeneration until you receive the faith. Faith has to come before regeneration. You didn't wake up and was regenerated and have faith, you didn't even know of the faith until you first heard the words of faith that isn't yours it came from the words of Jesus.
Getting regenerated without the words of faith is not scriptural
You are claiming that I have omitted the Word of God, but that is not the case. We were simply not discussing that, just as their are many other aspects which we were not discussing.
Faith comes from hearing the word, true enough. But Jesus said you cannot even SEE the kingdom of Heaven, unless you were FIRST born again. We have "ears that will not hear": unless the Holy Spirit first opens them, through regeneration, we cannot hear the Word of God, and believe.
Jesus said...
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Notice that only Jesus' sheep (which were already given by the Father, according to Jesus) "hear his voice," the word of God. The rest, do not hear it (in an understanding, salvific way)
Where is being baptized in the Spirit mentioned in Galatians 3:14? It speaks only of receiving the Spirit.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
This verse says we receive the Spirit through faith, so faith necessarily precedes regeneration. And it was said earlier in the same chapter.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Here Paul asks how the Galatians received the Spirit, and shows it was through faith that came by hearing God's word. And notice this must be regeneration, because in next verse it says "having begun in the Spirit", so this is not speaking of some later work of the Spirit.
If you are going to say I am in error, then show scripture that proves it. And please, try to do your own work, no copy and paste from some Calvinistic author. When you don't post your own work it makes it appear as though you really don't understand your own doctrine, if you truly do understand your doctrine it should be easy to explain in your own words.