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Let's talk about Ellen White - SDA prophet

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes - she claims to have had inspired visions and dreams on all of those topics. In a number of cases those visions took place in a public meetings where there were doctors present.

At those times she would cease to breathe - sometimes for more than an hour.

In another example while in vision she stood up - held large family Bible over her head and pointing to scripture after scripture - quoted texts specific to a particular subject that was being debated by those attending. When she came out of vision - the vision itself was on an entirely different topic.

in Christ,

Bob

This is so sad. Why Bob? I don't understand why you would believe such fullishness. You present yourself as having great wisdom of the bible and it's teachings, and yet you let yourself believe in a person who said some absolute crazy babel.

Was it a childhood doctrination? It is very difficult to objectively view a person's teachings if you have been indoctrinated from youth that what they said is to be accepted as being from God.

We have an ex-JW that received Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour about eight years ago and she gave testimony of how difficult it was to shake those false teachings that were pounded into her mind for all those years before. She practiced in the cult for about twenty years before God's grace broke through to her.

:jesus:
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Daniel states that in his case - in vision "there was no breath left in me" Dan 10:17.

I accept that Daniel had visions from God - even though he describes that particular effect.

Though "I suppose" I could compare him to ex-JWs as some kind of exercise.

The objective unbiased reader will "notice" the Bible evidence for spiritual gifts --

The basis for even knowing and accepting any prophet is the 1Cor 12 basis of spiritual gifts. Turns out the gift of prophecy is one of them.

1Thess 5:19-20 says that we are neither to "quench the Spirit" nor are we to "despise prophetic messages".

1Cor 14 says that when the NT church met "EACH ONE had a teaching, a revelation, a tongue" - yet we know that we have no text of scripture handed down to us today from "each one at the church of Corinth". Thus we have one of many examples that the gift of prophecy did not necessarily make one a "Bible writer".

Rev 19 states that the saints are known as those who have the Testimony of Jesus - which is (according to the text) the "Spirit of prophecy"

1 John 4 tells us to test the prophets. We are not to accept everyone who claims the gift of prophecy.

The first test of a prophet is the Is 8:20 test "to the Law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word - they have no light"

1Cor 14 states that prophecy is "a sign for believers" - that is those who hold to the same understanding of the Bible - a common doctrinal POV that can be used to test the prophets.

For that reason (obviously) a context where not all Christians are in agreement on all doctrines - you have no basis for insisting that they all accept a methodist, or baptist, or presbyterian, or Adventist as a prophet.

Just stating the obvious so far.

That same reader will notice that many responses to that Bible based position listed here so far are of the form "yes but I am not used to seeing that in real life".

in Christ,

Bob
 
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targus

New Member
Daniel states that in his case - in vision "there was no breath left in me" Dan 10:17.

And you interpret "there was no breath left in me" as meaning "cease to breathe - sometimes for more than an hour"?

The objective unbiased reader will "notice" the Bible evidence for spiritual gifts --

That same reader will notice that many responses to that Bible based position listed here so far are of the form "yes but I am not used to seeing that in real life".

And it doesn't dawn on you that the creator of this "Ellen White can hold her breath for a really really long time" fairytale maybe could have just possibly read Daniel's statement before making up this nonesense about Ellen White?

Seriously, think about it.
 

Marcia

Active Member
1. You realize of course - "that makes no sense". For any denomination to flourish and grow they have to "teach" whatever doctrine they want to promote. "denying a doctrine" is not a "funny kinda way to promote it".

2. The actual "fact" is that Adventists accept the 1Cor 12 teaching on spiritual gifts that includes the gift of prophecy - as stated in scripture.

Prophecy is "by definition" a message from God. But the messages of all prophets are tested "sola scriptura" -- and when that prophet claims that the message is "via divine revelation through the gift of prophecy" then testing that message also tests whether the prophet is a true prophet or not.

Yes, and when Ellen White's "prophecies" are tested against Scripture, they fail, misreably.


Adventists (including Ellen White) do not teach that those who keep Sunday instead of honoring the 4th commandment today "have the Mark of the Beast".

Yes, they do. I provided the source. White did teach this.


To be accurate - Adventist teaching is that at Jesus ascension into heaven He entered the heavenly sanctuary "once for all" and at that time He began His Ministry as our "High Priest" (Hebrews chapters 7 through 9 make that very obvious).

Yes, to investigate the actions of believers to see if they merit salvation.

The Oct 22, 1844 event you mention above is about the close of the 2300 prophetic days of Daniel 8 where Christ enters the Most Holy Place of that Heavenly Sanctuary for the antitypical "Day of Atonement" phase of the sanctuary service.

There is no biblical support for this. Christ's atonement was "once for all" and He "sat down," as it states in several places, especially in Hebrews.

You know that this date came out of the failed prophecy of William Miller. This is just part of factual history. No matter how you slice and dice it, the SDA teachings are what they are, though the SDA often tries to hide some of what they do teach.
 

Trotter

<img src =/6412.jpg>
targus said:
On what basis do SDAs believe Ellen White to be a prophet in the biblical sense of the word?
A simple question... and yet it has been danced around and around by our resident SDA advocate.

How about a straight answer, Bob? Nothing fancy, nothing eleborate. A simple, straight answer that squares with the bible itself. So far you have made sure to deflect the question and focus on somehting, anything, else.

As for the SDA "Fundamental Beliefs, it all sounds fairy square down to "The Gift od Profecy" where Ms. white is mentioned by name... "One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested."

Then comes the part about living the Law. Seems that a lot of the New Testament had soemthing to say about those who wanted to put the yoke of the Law on those who came to Christ...
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Daniel states that in his case - in vision "there was no breath left in me" Dan 10:17.

And you interpret "there was no breath left in me" as meaning "cease to breathe

I for one am very glad when Targus gets the easy part.

Bravo!

The point being that her visions do indicate a supernatural element.

However this agreement with Dan 10:17 is not even remotely why SDAs accept her or anyone else's claims to having the gift of prophecy. It merely shows that there is a supernatural aspect to the gift.

The "test" for a prophet continues to be the Bible tests as given in both OT and NT. For example Is 8:20 "To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this word they have no light".

Thus for Adventists it is the doctrinal test that must be passed EVEN if the prophet happens to have public visions and numerous witnesses to the effects being in line with Dan 10:17.

in Christ,

Bob
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Then comes the part about living the Law. Seems that a lot of the New Testament had soemthing to say ...

Indeed - Paul says "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

In Rom 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justified" Rom 2:11-13

In 1Cor 7:19 Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

In John 14:15 - Christ Himself says PRECROSS -- "IF you love Me KEEP My commandments"

Everyone agrees that Christ is not saying to the lost "perfectly keep my Commands so you can be a Christian" -- rather it is only the saved born again 2Cor 5 "New Creation" that Christ and Paul are speaking to - regarding this aspect of perseverance instead of rebellion against God.

in Christ,

Bob
 

Trotter

<img src =/6412.jpg>
BobRyan said:
Indeed - Paul says "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

In Rom 2 Paul says "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL BE justified" Rom 2:11-13

In 1Cor 7:19 Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

In John 14:15 - Christ Himself says PRECROSS -- "IF you love Me KEEP My commandments"

Everyone agrees that Christ is not saying to the lost "perfectly keep my Commands so you can be a Christian" -- rather it is only the saved born again 2Cor 5 "New Creation" that Christ and Paul are speaking to - regarding this aspect of perseverance instead of rebellion against God.

in Christ,

Bob

Try using some context for your proof texts, Bob.

The law being spoken of in Romans 3:31 is not the Mosaic Law, but rather the law of faith.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one--who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.
(Rom 3:27-31 ESV)

Romans 2:11-13 is a part of Paul's line of thought running up to and through 3:27-31. Paul is showing that the Jew, under the Law, is answerable to the Law, while the gentile is answerable to the law written on his heart; both stand condemned. Paul continues his train of thought through the upholding of the Law and how works are of no benefit against faith. Pulling a single verse out of the whole discourse radically changes what Paul was saying, and I would have thought better of you than that.

1 Cor 7:19 concerns Paul treatment of the condition/position of the person before he was saved. This has nothing to say about a person keeping the Law to be saved; it speaks of remaing as you are when you were saved. If you are circumcised, remain so; if uncircumsized, stay that way. It says nothing about observing the law for salvation.
Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God. Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called. Were you a slave when called? Do not be concerned about it. (But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself of the opportunity.) For he who was called in the Lord as a slave is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a slave of Christ. You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. So, brothers, in whatever condition each was called, there let him remain with God.
(1Co 7:18-24 ESV)

Jesus, speaking in John 14:15, was not referring to the Law of Moses. He was speaking of what He had told His discpiles. And what had He told them. Back up just before your quote:
When he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once. Little children, yet a little while I am with you. You will seek me, and just as I said to the Jews, so now I also say to you, 'Where I am going you cannot come.' A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."
(Joh 13:31-35 ESV)

Your statement about 2 Cor 5:17 et al makes no sense, especially in the way you presented it. The only way to be "saved born again" is to keep the Law? That's a huge stretch, mate, and there is nothing in the text to support that.
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Try using some context for your proof texts, Bob.

The law being spoken of in Romans 3:31 is not the Mosaic Law, but rather the law of faith.

Wrong.

Romans 7 quotes from the Law -- same book same author - it is the Law as found in what Paul called "scripture".

This is really the easy part.


Romans 2:11-13 is a part of Paul's line of thought running up to and through 3:27-31. Paul is showing that the Jew, under the Law, is answerable to the Law,

In Romans 2 Paul is very explicit about "the Jew first AND ALSO the Gentile" -- all just "inconvenient details" for those who reject what Paul is saying there.

In Romans 2 Paul says that the gentiles do not actually have the written law AND YET in Romans 2 some of them show that Law written on the heart - which in Romans 2 - Paul says is a work that is done by the Holy Spirit "circumcision is of the heart - by the Holy Spirit".

The details found in careful exegesis of the chapter do not support your hopeful assertions my friend.


As noted Paul stated in 1Cor 7 (consistent with Romans 2:11-13 and Rom 3:31 and Romans 7 ) "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" - thus his teaching was also consistent with the pre-cross teaching of Christ - "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" and is also consistent with Eph 6:1-2 saying that the 5th Commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" (which is true ONLY if you are looking at the unit of what scripture calls "the TEN Commandments")

1 Cor 7:19 concerns Paul treatment of the condition/position of the person before he was saved. This has nothing to say about a person keeping the Law to be saved; it speaks of remaing as you are when you were saved. If you are circumcised, remain so; if uncircumsized, stay that way. It says nothing about observing the law for salvation.

There is no such thing as having the lost person "obey the law until they become saved" -- as it turns out.

The point of obedience is for the SAVED person -- as I have been stating.

And as Romans 2 points out - if that saved person chooses to rebel against the Law of God they will NOT remain saved. In fact Romans 11 is clear "YOU stand only by your faith ... you should FEAR for if God did not spare the unbelieving Jews NEITHER will He spare you" (should you choose rebellion against God)

Jesus, speaking in John 14:15, was not referring to the Law of Moses. He was speaking of what He had told His discpiles. And what had He told them. Back up just before your quote:

In Matt 5 Christ said "DO NOT think that I have come to change THE LAW" Christ never argued "pay no attention to scripture from now on".

In Gal 4 Paul says that Christ was "born under the law" and perfectly obeyed it.

In Matt 5 Paul says that the one who TEACHES others to ignore or disregard even the LEAST part of the Law of God would be called LEAST in heaven.

17Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Thus there is no basis at all for the arguments of the form "Christ taught His disciples to ignore the Word of God"

Your statement about 2 Cor 5:17 et al makes no sense, especially in the way you presented it.

to support that assertion you need a point that holds up to close review in scripture.

Still waiting...


The only way to be "saved born again" is to keep the Law?

Yes that is what I said Christ was NOT arguing.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
White also said that those who worship on Sunday will have the "mark of the Beast" when Jesus returns. Iow, if you are worshiping on Sunday when Jesus comes back, that's bad news for you!

.

The quote is from the book "the Great Controversy" page 605

It is a prediction that Sabbath will become a highly contested point across all nations of the earth at some future point in time. If that event does not happen - - then the prediction is wrong.

That is the easy part.

Here is the text

... "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, My people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." Revelation 18:1, 2, 4. {GC 603.1}
This scripture points forward to a time when the announcement of the fall of Babylon, as made by the second angel of Revelation 14 (verse 8), is to be repeated, with the additional mention of the corruptions which have been entering the various organizations that constitute Babylon, since that message was first given, in the summer of 1844. A terrible condition of the religious world is here described. With every rejection of truth the minds of the people will become darker, their hearts more stubborn, until they are entrenched in an infidel hardihood. In defiance of the warnings which God has given, they will continue to trample upon one of the precepts of the Decalogue, until they are led to persecute those who hold it sacred. Christ is set at nought in the contempt placed upon His word and His people. As the teachings of spiritualism are accepted by the churches, the restraint imposed upon the carnal heart is removed, and the profession of religion will become a cloak to conceal the basest iniquity. A belief in spiritual manifestations opens the door to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and thus the influence of evil angels will be felt in the churches. {GC 603.2}

...
These announcements, uniting with the third angel's message, constitute the final warning to be given to the inhabitants of the earth. {GC 604.1}

Fearful is the issue to which the world is to be brought. The powers of earth, uniting to war against the commandments of God, will decree that "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond" (Revelation 13:16), shall conform to the customs of the church by the observance of the false sabbath. All who refuse compliance will be visited with civil penalties, and it will finally be declared that they are deserving of death. On the other hand, the law of God enjoining the Creator's rest day demands obedience and threatens wrath against all who transgress its precepts. {GC 604.2}

With the issue thus clearly brought before him, whoever shall trample upon God's law to obey a human enactment receives the mark of the beast; he accepts the sign of allegiance to the power which he chooses to obey instead of God. The warning from heaven is: "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation." Revelation 14:9, 10. {GC 604.3}

But not one is made to suffer the wrath of God until the truth has been brought home to his mind and conscience, and has been rejected. There are many who have never had an opportunity to hear the special truths for this time. The obligation of the fourth commandment has never been set before them in its true light. He who reads every heart and tries every motive will leave none who desire a knowledge of the truth, to be deceived as to the issues of the controversy. The decree is not to be urged upon the people blindly. Everyone is to have sufficient light to make his decision intelligently. {GC 605.1}

The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not. While the observance of the false sabbath in compliance with the law of the state, contrary to the fourth commandment, will be an avowal of allegiance to a power that is in opposition to God, the keeping of the true Sabbath, in obedience to God's law, is an evidence of loyalty to the Creator. While one class, by accepting the sign of submission to earthly powers, receive the mark of the beast, the other choosing the token of allegiance to divine authority, receive the seal of God. {GC 605.2}

Heretofore those who presented the truths of the third angel's message have often been regarded as mere alarmists. Their predictions that religious intolerance would gain control in the United States, that church and state would unite to persecute those who keep the commandments of God, have been pronounced groundless and absurd. It has been confidently declared that this land could never become other than what it has been--the defender of religious freedom. But as the question of enforcing Sunday observance is widely agitated, the event so long doubted and disbelieved is seen to be approaching, and the third message will produce an effect which it could not have had before. {GC 605.3}

In every generation God has sent His servants to rebuke sin, both in the world and in the church. But the people desire smooth things spoken to them, and the pure, unvarnished truth is not acceptable. Many reformers, in entering upon their work, determined to exercise great prudence in attacking the sins of the church and the nation. They hoped, by the example of a pure Christian life, to lead the people back to the doctrines of the Bible. But the Spirit of God came upon them as it came upon Elijah, moving him to rebuke the sins of a wicked king and an apostate people; they could not refrain from preaching the plain utterances of the Bible-- doctrines which they had been reluctant to present. They were impelled to zealously declare the truth and the danger which threatened souls. The words which the Lord gave them they uttered, fearless of consequences, and the people were compelled to hear the warning. {GC 606.1}

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/...ction00000.htm/book01953.htm/chapter01994.htm
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
She believed in and wrote about the “shut door” doctrine for several years after the “great disappointment” and then retracted it. This was a doctrine that taught that there was no need for evangelism because Jesus had already decided who was going to be saved and who was going to be lost.

Now for the actual facts.

1. She wrote about the existence of the shut door event - as a historical reference but never claimed that God showed her that it was correct. She reports the historic fact that at one time she believed that there were no more people to be saved outside of the Millerites - but never wrote in favor of that view.

2. Neither did she ever write in favor of the shut door doctrine (defined as no more evangelism) in any way promoting it as her own view or as the view of God.

in Christ,

Bob
 

Marcia

Active Member
Anyone can investigate the writings of Ellen White to see how unbiblical they are.

See
http://www.nonsda.org/study8.shtml

and

http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/

and

http://members.tripod.com/~Help_for_SDAs/FactsSDAsWontTellYou.htm


They do teach that those worshiping on Sunday when Jesus returns have or will receive the mark of the Beast.

"Sunday-keeping must be the mark of the beast." ... "The reception of his mark must be something that involves the greatest offense that can be committed against God." (The Marvel of Nations, Elder U. Smith pages 170, 183)
"Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the Catholic church, without any authority from the Bible." (Ellen G. White, The Mark of the Beast, page 23)
"The Sunday Sabbath is purely a child of the Papacy. It is the mark of the beast." (Advent Review, Vol. I, No. 2, August, 1850.)
"The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the authority of the Romish church." ... "The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception of the mark." (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol. 4, page 281.
"The mark of the beast is Sunday-keeping. A law will enforce this upon Seventh-day Adventists. They won't obey. Then they will be outlawed, persecuted, and condemned to death! Of all the wild Advent speculations in the prophecies, this deserves to stand among the wildest." (Seventh-day Adventism Renounced" by D.M. Canright, 1914)
"Sunday-keeping is an institution of the first beast, and ALL who submit to obey this institution emphatically worship the first beast and receive his mark, 'the mark of the beast.' .... Those who worship the beast and his image by observing the first day are certainly idolaters, as were the worshippers of the golden calf." (Advent Review Extra, pages 10 and 11, August, 1850)

http://www.bible.ca/7-mark-beast.htm
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
The quote is from the book "the Great Controversy" page 605

It is a prediction that Sabbath will become a highly contested point across all nations of the earth at some future point in time. If that event does not happen - - then the prediction is wrong.

That is the easy part.

Here is the text

so far nothing has been posted to challenge this answer.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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