How Romans 11 debunks OSAS

[BobRyan]

The reference to Matt. 18 by my estimation is used out of context. To put "revoked forgiveness" for gentiles into a passage dealing specifically with Israel is a stretch, to say the least.Is it your claim that saved Jewish Christians DO NOT qualify for OSAS -- only saved gentiles qualify for it??

That is the first I ever heard of that one!!

Or are you claiming that lost Jews are fully forgiven -- and have no debt before God?

Or are you claiming that we are to ignore the Gospels and the teaching of Christ now?

I find the logic in your argument to be illusive at that point.

Honestly, Bob, I don't know how I gave you this impression.

What I said was this passage is Jesus talking to Jews, and the imagery is that of Israel...not the Church, which is comprised of Jew and Gentile.

You are using a passage that is specifically directed at Jews, and applying it to all Christians.

My mistake I assumed you were sticking with the "each one of you" individual nature of both the Matt 18 parable and the Matt 18 application Christ makes.

you seem to have turned Matt 18 into "if ONE of you fails to forgiven his neighbor then the entire Jewish nation will suffer for all sins that God has forgiven them for in the past".

Which is a huge change for the text just to try and spare OSAS - wouldn't you agree?

But if we leave Matt 18 at the individual nature - staying true both to the content of the parable and to the application Christ makes to "each one of you" all being at the "individual level" then it is clear - OSAS does not survive Matt 18.

It appeared to me from your comments above you were then arguing that OSAS fails for Jews - but not for Gentiles.

Hence my surprised response to that solution.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you still haven't taken the time to study the entire chapter in its context. When will you start doing that? Perhaps I will wait for that time.
When Paul was addressing (or speaking about) the Jews he mentioned the root. He was speaking about the Jewish nation. What is the root of the Jewish nation. The root is Abraham,

DHK - you did a cut and paste of W. Macdonald's material here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1518208&postcount=222

I immediately did a point-by-point review of the areas where Macdonald's material had some flaws.

Thus I already responded to this in detail and it went something like this

Quote:
Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

And if SOME branches be broken off - if SOME Jews choose not to accept the Messiah...
THOU being a WILD olive tree -- "thou" being gentile - not natural to the Hebrew Bible, Hebrew religion

WERE GRAFTED IN AMONG THEM.. PARTAKING of the (holy) ROOT" - Gentiles, (wild branched) that HAVE been place into the body of Christ, in WITH the UNFALLEN group of Jews that REMAIN - the REMNANT that were faithful. Partaking of that root which Paul declares to be Holy - Christ Himelf.

Quote:
DHK --The phrase “cast away” is else where referred to as “slumber”. It is not permanent. God is not finished with Israel yet.
Thus if Israel is set on a shelf for a temporary period of time so that the world might be reconciled, what shall the receiving of “them” (Israel) be, but life from the dead? In other words God has not forgotten Israel.

Now Paul uses a couple of different metaphors.
The firstfruit is Abraham—the father of the Jews. He was set apart (made holy) by the Lord.
He also is the root. If Abraham, the root, is set apart, so are the branches. Thus if Abraham was set apart so were his descendents that formed the nation.

--Some of the branches were broken off. Those would be portions of the tribes of unbelieving Israel. Because of their rejection of the Messiah they were moved from their place of privilege.
--The wild olive tree refers to the Gentile nations as one people. Remember the Jews were referred to as one at first as well. All Gentiles share in a privileged position that once was Israel’s.

Abraham is NOT the "holy root" into which wild branches are grafted in. Though we can understand why Judaizers might imagine that the goal is for all to be plugged into Abraham instead of Christ.

The text does NOT say "the root was MADE Holy"

Christ states clearly in John 15 that HE is the vine - and BELIEVERS are the branches.

The root is Christ.

Abraham does not "support" the believing Jews of Paul's day much less the believing Gentiles of Paul's day.

Christ is the life of the church - the branches draw life from Christ as we see both in John 15 and in Romans 11.

Trying to get Abraham to be the source of LIFE for gentiles or even believing Jews is not something you can support from Scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

The root is Christ.

Abraham does not "support" the believing Jews of Paul's day much less the believing Gentiles of Paul's day.

Christ is the life of the church - the branches draw life from Christ as we see both in John 15 and in Romans 11.

Trying to get Abraham to be the source of LIFE for gentiles or even believing Jews is not something you can support from Scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

You are entitled to your opinion Bob. The Jews of the OT did not know of Christ. The father of their nation was Abraham. They stated so in John 8:

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Then Jesus reaffirmed their claim:
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

According to Jews, and even Christ himself, Abraham is the root, the father of the nation, from whence Christ came. Without Abraham there would have been no Israel, and no Christ!!

 

[Robert Snow]

I cannot believe that God gives a gift to sinful people knowing that they will sin again and lose it. He gave me ETERNAL LIFE when I called on Him and NOT temporary life until my next sin, which I'm sure was the same day I was saved and many times since then. However, He is forgiving and hears me when I ask His forgiveness when I sin, which I still do occasionally--mostly just in my thoughts.

Correct! Also, salvation is likened to being "born." When someone shows me how a person can be "unborn" they might have a point. Until then, it's just the spreading of false doctrine.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
And if SOME branches be broken off - if SOME Jews choose not to accept the Messiah...
THOU being a WILD olive tree -- "thou" being gentile - not natural to the Hebrew Bible, Hebrew religion

WERE GRAFTED IN AMONG THEM.. PARTAKING of the (holy) ROOT" - Gentiles, (wild branched) that HAVE been place into the body of Christ, in WITH the UNFALLEN group of Jews that REMAIN - the REMNANT that were faithful. Partaking of that root which Paul declares to be Holy - Christ Himelf.

Abraham is NOT the "holy root" into which wild branches are grafted in. Though we can understand why Judaizers might imagine that the goal is for all to be plugged into Abraham instead of Christ.

The text does NOT say "the root was MADE Holy"

Christ states clearly in John 15 that HE is the vine - and BELIEVERS are the branches.

Paul affirms that it is life from the root that supports the believing Gentiles -- it is not the believing gentiles that give life to the root.

You are entitled to your opinion Bob. The Jews of the OT did not know of Christ.

On the contrary - Paul states clearly in 1Cor 10 that the rock 'that followed them was CHRIST' for they all "drank from same Spiritual Rock".

God the Son was from eternity past -- no beginning - and no end.

It is Christ that is the foundation of the people of God from Adam until this very day.

The father of their nation was Abraham. They stated so in John 8:

John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

IF Romans 11 had said "Abraham is your father -- you are not Abraham's father" you might have a point.

That is not the symbol used.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Abraham is NOT the "holy root" into which wild branches are grafted in. Though we can understand why Judaizers might imagine that the goal is for all to be plugged into Abraham instead of Christ.

When you plug in your presuppositions into the text it is no wonder you don't understand the text. The nation of Israel came from Abraham. Is that true? Yes or no.

The text does NOT say "the root was MADE Holy"

Then what does it say?

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
--Abraham was the firstfruit of the nation of Israel; the father of Jews.
He was the root, holy--set apart from whom all nations of the world would be blessed.
Because of that the branches would also be holy (set apart). And so they were. The entire nation of Israel was a nation set apart by God from all the other nations of the world. They were a nation called out of God, holy, elect, called out of God.

Christ states clearly in John 15 that HE is the vine - and BELIEVERS are the branches.

This is not speaking of Christ and believers, it is speaking of the nation of Israel. John 15 has nothing to do with this passage.

Paul affirms that it is life from the root that supports the believing Gentiles -- it is not the believing gentiles that give life to the root.

It is an illustration, almost like a parable that Paul is using. Every root draws up nutrients and gives life to that which it supports. Abraham is mentioned in Romans 4:1-5, 18-21; Hebrews 11. He is the man of faith, the friend of God. What was the promise that God gave to Abraham:

Genesis 12:2-3 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
--All the familes of the earth includes the Gentiles.

On the contrary - Paul states clearly in 1Cor 10 that the rock 'that followed them was CHRIST' for they all "drank from same Spiritual Rock".

Not even Catholics of the 21st century can understand that verse, and you think it is that clear to the OT Jews. It wasn't written in OT times Bob. They had no idea that "that rock was Christ." That was a mystery hidden to them. Paul is teaching this to the Corinthians for the first time.

God the Son was from eternity past -- no beginning - and no end.

It is Christ that is the foundation of the people of God from Adam until this very day.

No one denies those truths today. But to affirm that the OT saints had a thorough knowledge of Christology is absurd!!

IF Romans 11 had said "Abraham is your father -- you are not Abraham's father" you might have a point.

That is not the symbol used.

in Christ,

Bob

It does. You just refuse to accept it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: He was the root, holy--set apart from whom all nations of the world would be blessed.
Because of that the branches would also be holy (set apart). And so they were. The entire nation of Israel was a nation set apart by God from all the other nations of the world. They were a nation called out of God, holy, elect, called out of God.

HP: If you think for a minute that all of Israel was holy and elect (in any permanent sense) you have either failed to read or are conveniently overlooking the rest of the story.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

 

[steaver]

The problem with that attempt to salvage OSAS - is that in the Acts 17 context - both the "broken-off" and unbelieving Jews of Romans 11 - AND ALSO the devil himself are all getting their "existence" from the One Creator and Sustainer GOD.

But John 15 and Romans 11 are specifically speaking of people being broken off - and YET STILL ALIVE.

In fact Romans 11 is clear "HE is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in UNBELIEF".

Thus the spiritual context for Romans 11 is explicit.

Thus the attempt above to spare OSAS failed to survive Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

This is no problem at all. Being "broken off" or "cut off" never suggest cease to exist. One can only cease to exist if Christ causes them to (doctrine of annihilation) or Christ Himself would cease to exist. "Broken off" does not mean "cease to exist". If it did they could not be grafted in again.

Your problem is with the text...

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

...this is ALL, all are "in him". Those being "cut off" are being cut off from God's eternal life promise found only in Christ because of their unbelief. If they continue not in unbelief, God is able to graft them in again.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver:... God is able to graft them in again.

HP: Interesting, the implications of the word 'again.' I wonder how a reputable dictionary might define the word 'again.' Hmmm.
Ro 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

 

[steaver]

HP: Interesting, the implications of the word 'again.' I wonder how a reputable dictionary might define the word 'again.' Hmmm.
Ro 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

I believe you missed the conversation about All mankind being "in Him" as offspring. When God convicts one of their need for Jesus Christ and they reject this in unbelief they are "cut off". If they abide not in unbelief and receive the truth they are grafted in again, only this time it is Eternally secured by Christ through regeneration and by the power of God.

:jesus:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: I believe you missed the conversation about All mankind being "in Him" as offspring.

HP: Are you being serious??? With all the posts on original sin, and all being sinners from birth I would think that it might be you as the one missing any connection between what has been posted and reality or logic. All born in sin and yet all born “in Him” as offspring??? You must not be serious.

Steaver: When God convicts one of their need for Jesus Christ and they reject this in unbelief they are "cut off".

HP: What a complete farse. Have you not read Psalms 51:5 or Pslams 58?? ALL are born in sin and as such deserve their teeth smashed in their mouths from birth…… or so by your own admissions to the import of those passages one can only conclude you really believe. Besides, if you read the Scriptures as to why one would be blotted out it was not for the rejection of a Savior in the verses I mentioned, but rather for their ‘sins.’ Certainly IF they hear and reject the gospel that would indeed seal their fate, but that is not the ‘cause’ of their malady according to Scripture. “

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Steaver: If they abide not in unbelief and receive the truth they are grafted in again, only this time it is Eternally secured by Christ through regeneration and by the power of God.

HP: Are you suggesting that one can be born again twice???? Once at birth, (for you have us all in Christ from birth in your latest posts that is) and born in Christ again by accepting His offer of salvation? Can one be in Christ (from birth) yet not be eternally so? What is this millisecond Christianity you are preaching about? Born in Christ, cut off to be reborn again. If it happened once why could it not happen every time one sins? Did Christ forget in the meantime who He knew was His from the beginning, casting off one He knew full well was His child all along??? What in the world is this you seem to be asserting? Show us again where we are ‘in Christ’ or ‘in God’ from birth, yet born as sinners estranged from God.

 

[steaver]

HP: Are you being serious??? With all the posts on original sin, and all being sinners from birth I would think that it might be you as the one missing any connection between what has been posted and reality or logic. All born in sin and yet all born “in Him” as offspring??? You must not be serious.

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

HP: What a complete farse. Have you not read Psalms 51:5 or Pslams 58?? ALL are born in sin and as such deserve their teeth smashed in their mouths from birth……

I never read this.

Besides, if you read the Scriptures as to why one would be blotted out it was not for the rejection of a Savior in the verses I mentioned, but rather for their ‘sins.’ Certainly IF they hear and reject the gospel that would indeed seal their fate, but that is not the ‘cause’ of their malady according to Scripture. “

I believe I already addressed this on your new thread.

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Why do you think Christ came and died? Without Jesus we all are toast.

Show us again where we are ‘in Christ’ or ‘in God’ from birth, yet born as sinners estranged from God.

Ok,

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

:thumbsup:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

HP: If you believe for a minute that the sinner is from birth born living, moving,and having his being in Christ, you are beyond reason and any reasonable interpretation of Scripture.

 

[steaver]

HP: If you believe for a minute that the sinner is from birth born living, moving,and having his being in Christ, you are beyond reason and any reasonable interpretation of Scripture.

I don't know what else I can say. Do you have another interpretation of this verse?

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

 

[DHK]

HP: If you think for a minute that all of Israel was holy and elect (in any permanent sense) you have either failed to read or are conveniently overlooking the rest of the story.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

God called Abraham out of Ur of Chaldees and promised that He would make a great nation out of him. His grandson had 12 sons which became the 12 tribes of Israel. They eventually went into captivity in Egypt. Moses, called by the Lord to deliver Israel out of the hands of the Egyptians, then led Egypt through the wilderness for 40 years. At Mount Sinai, Moses took this former nomadic people, the offspring of Abraham, and formed them into one nation under God, a theocracy, having a law (civil, ceremonial, etc.). Now they were truly a nation. But they were different than the other nations. They were holy--set apart from God. They always have been.

Isaiah 62:11-12 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Isaiah 62:11-12 Behold, the LORD hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

HP: If you think for a minute that all of Israel was holy and elect (in any permanent sense) you have either failed to read or are conveniently overlooking the rest of the story. God divorced many of them.

 

[DHK]

HP: If you think for a minute that all of Israel was holy and elect (in any permanent sense) you have either failed to read or are conveniently overlooking the rest of the story. God divorced many of them.

Perhaps you don't understand what the Bible says here. We are not speaking of individuals. God called out a nation for himself in the OT; he also is calling out a nation for himself in the NT.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
--I dare say that all who name the name of Christ live holy lives. And so it was in Israel as well.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Perhaps you don't understand what the Bible says here. We are not speaking of individuals. God called out a nation for himself in the OT; he also is calling out a nation for himself in the NT.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

HP: A nation is a group comprised of individuals and not all in such a group will inherit the promises afforded that group. Some individuals within that nation will onherit the promises and other individuals comprising that nation will not. Furthermore, the passage of Romans 11 makes it absolutely clear that only some of the nation Israel will be saved, while others spurn such great privilege. Yet even those that spurned the gospel message can be saved ‘if they will but turn’ and be grafted in again, even as ‘life from the dead.’

Ro 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save ‘some’ of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

DHK: --I dare say that all who name the name of Christ live holy lives. And so it was in Israel as well.

HP: So right you are and of such are those within the nation of Israel that did not attain the righteousness of God which is by faith, neither will they be found in Him in the last day. “2Ti 2:19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Just as not all of Israel (the nation) are of the true vine of Israel (Christ) all that take the name of Christ will not be found in Him in the last day either. Just as some followed the True God and Living God in days past of the nation Israel, but went a whoring off after strange gods and were divorced by God and in the end not receiving the whole of their inheritance, we should fear lest we come short of receiving a promise for us. Heb 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

 

[DHK]

HP: A nation is a group comprised of individuals and not all in such a group will inherit the promises afforded that group. Some individuals within that nation will onherit the promises and other individuals comprising that nation will not. Furthermore, the passage of Romans 11 makes it absolutely clear that only some of the nation Israel will be saved, while others spurn such great privilege. Yet even those that spurned the gospel message can be saved ‘if they will but turn’ and be grafted in again, even as ‘life from the dead.’

Ro 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save ‘some’ of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?


HP: So right you are and of such are those within the nation of Israel that did not attain the righteousness of God which is by faith, neither will they be found in Him in the last day. “2Ti 2:19 ¶ Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Just as not all of Israel (the nation) are of the true vine of Israel (Christ) all that take the name of Christ will not be found in Him in the last day either. Just as some followed the True God and Living God in days past of the nation Israel, but went a whoring off after strange gods and were divorced by God and in the end not receiving the whole of their inheritance, we should fear lest we come short of receiving a promise for us. Heb 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Hindsight is better than foresight.
Israel is not the Church, and never will be. In fact in the Millennial Kingdom they will co-exist side by side.
You are putting forth some kind of replacement theology which I regard as heresy.

Entire chapters in the OT are given over to showing how God has called out Israel as a nation above all other nations. If you don't believe that then you need to do some serious Bible study. You can't read back into the OT verses that are in the NT, especially verses speaking of Christ and Christianity. It doesn't work that way.

Take your time and read the entire chapter of Isaiah 42.
Here are just a couple verses from it:

Isaiah 42:5-6 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
--They are God's covenant people, a light of all the nations. God called them out. He made them a light of all nations.

Deuteronomy 10:15 Only the LORD had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.
--What is the meaning of this verse HP?
He chose Israel above all people as it is this day. God called them out as a nation above all the nations of the world. This is what God says. I believe God rather than your philosophizing.

 

[Darrell C]

Gal 5:4 "Severed from Christ -- FALLEN from grace"
Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked"
John 15 "branches in me" that are removed and cast into fire
Hebrews 6 - those that have escaped the world and its lusts and have tasted of the good things of the age to come - and yet have turned back...

In Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

I've missed alot, I see.

Okay, apparently you misunderstood wha I said about Matt. 18.

First, understand, I reject replacement theology and see the kingdom of God as consisting of those who are His.

However, the ministry of Christ was specifically meant for Israel. He said on a number of occasions He came for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

I think I already stated where I stand on this, so I won't belabor the point.

I can see you are not convinced about Romans 11, but, there are more passages to debunk.

In Matt. 18, since you want to equate this to all Christians (not to say it doesn't have application in our lives), consider this.

In Romans and John 15, the warning is "being cut out" and "cut off".

In Matt. 18, how can you possibly get eternal application from a "believer" having a debtor thrown into prison (v.30)?

Furthermore, the King (his lord), who we would see as picturing God, has this man sent to the tormentors, "til he should pay all that was due unto him."

While this may be fitting for the Catholic to promote purgatory, it is unsuitable for one to promote eternal judgement of a believer.

I look forward to your response.

I will post this, and then look at John 15.

God bless.