How Romans 11 debunks OSAS

[Darrell C]

Hi Bob, I will post the scripture and then go back for commentary, so that we can both utilize the text.

If you or anybody else is fast at typing (I am not), or knows how to insert the scripture (I do not), feel free to post them, this will greatly help me.

John 15:1-I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2-Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3-Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4-Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine: no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5-I am the vine, ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6-If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

7-If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

8-Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

If you feel more verse need to be added to keep the integrity of the context, feel free to add them.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Bob, I will post the scripture and then go back for commentary, so that we can both utilize the text.

If you or anybody else is fast at typing (I am not), or knows how to insert the scripture (I do not), feel free to post them, this will greatly help me.

John 15:1-I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

The true vine as opposed to what? The vine imagery of the Old Testament (the scripture they had at that time. What does the imagery represent? The people of God. Jesus is the Author and Completer of the faithof those that are in Him.


2-Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Sounds a little like Romans 11. The imagery is identical. The outcome of those "taken away" pictures eternal judgement...they are burned. This always speak of eternal condemnation when people are spoken of, not to be confused with the trying of works by fire.

What is significant in this, and might be better understood if it came after v.5 is that all who are in Christ will bear fruit...those who are not will not bear fruit.

Those who are in Him will be pruned, not cast forth and burned.

3-Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

They are "clean", not regenerated. They are enlightened, tasted of the heavenly gift, were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted of the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come...but they are not born again. One among them would not "abide", the son of perdition, Judas.

4-Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine: no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

We all understand this. Continue in me, the Lord says.

5-I am the vine, ye are the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


(Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away)

Note carefully, the ones who abide will not fail to bear fruit. I don't know if you recognize the significance of this. Those who are truly in Jesus will abide and bear fruit.

I don't see this as temporal judgement as Ananias, because, again, the burning represents eternal judgement.

6-If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

In other words, if one is not truly in Christ, as Judas was not, he will neither abide nor bear fruit.

7-If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Those in Christ have access to God in prayer. Wouldn't it be reasonable for one in Christ, who feared that God would renege on His promise, "I will never leave thee nor forsake thee" would ask that He allow him to abide?

And wouldn't He then do it?

That question sounds as silly to me as it is to think God would leave or forsake those who are His.

8-Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

Not disciples because we bear fruit, but fruit-bearing because we are disciples.

If you feel more verse need to be added to keep the integrity of the context, feel free to add them.

God bless.

I know this will not satisfy you either, Bob, but lets go on.

If you know how to insert scripture (I know there's a way, but I don't know how), please insert Hebrews 5:8-6:12.

This I think is your next scripture reference, and these verse have to be included to keep it in context.

God bless, Bob.

 

[BobRyan]

Darrell - at around 30 pages the thread gets locked - so we may need to carry this to a new thread when we reach the limit here.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob,

In Matt. 18, how can you possibly get eternal application from a "believer" having a debtor thrown into prison (v.30)?

Furthermore, the King (his lord), who we would see as picturing God, has this man sent to the tormentors, "til he should pay all that was due unto him."

While this may be fitting for the Catholic to promote purgatory, it is unsuitable for one to promote eternal judgement of a believer.

Well I agree it does not fit OSAS if that is what you mean.

The King is God.

The debt so huge that we cannot pay and survive - is our debt of sin.

The full forgiveness of debt - is salvation and full forgiveness.

The act of forgiving others out of the gratitude you have for being fully forgiven a much greater debt - the debt of sin, is clear.

The fact of "Forgiveness revoked" is then clearly being taught.

Christ then argues "So shall my Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

The torment and torture - is the Rev 14 torment of the 2nd death - lake of fire, fire and brimstone.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
And if SOME branches be broken off - if SOME Jews choose not to accept the Messiah...
THOU being a WILD olive tree -- "thou" being gentile - not natural to the Hebrew Bible, Hebrew religion

WERE GRAFTED IN AMONG THEM.. PARTAKING of the (holy) ROOT" - Gentiles, (wild branched) that HAVE been place into the body of Christ, in WITH the UNFALLEN group of Jews that REMAIN - the REMNANT that were faithful. Partaking of that root which Paul declares to be Holy - Christ Himelf.

Abraham is NOT the "holy root" into which wild branches are grafted in. Though we can understand why Judaizers might imagine that the goal is for all to be plugged into Abraham instead of Christ.

The text does NOT say "the root was MADE Holy"

Christ states clearly in John 15 that HE is the vine - and BELIEVERS are the branches.

Paul affirms that it is life from the root that supports the believing Gentiles -- it is not the believing gentiles that give life to the root.

Then what does it say?

Romans 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

indeed "the text" says that the Root IS Holy.

--Abraham was the firstfruit of the nation of Israel;

NO TEXT (not even Romans 11) says that "Abraham is the firstfruit" of anything!

"ISRAEL" is the name given to Jacob - not Abraham!

The entire nation of Israel was a nation set apart by God from all the other nations of the world. They were a nation called out of God, holy, elect, called out of God.

This is not speaking of Christ

wrong.

Scripture makes it cleary that being holy ONLY comes from Christ. APART from Christ - no Holiness at all!!

Scripture makes it clear that the Rock that followed Israel was Christ - 1cor 10.

It is an illustration, almost like a parable that Paul is using. Every root draws up nutrients and gives life to that which it supports. Abraham is mentioned in Romans 4:1-5, 18-21; Hebrews 11. He is the man of faith, the friend of God.

Indeed but Abraham is NEVER mentioned as the "root" of anything.
Abraham is NEVER mentioned as that which gives GENTILES life!
Abraham is NEVER mentioned as the one from whom even BELIEVING Jews "get life" or "are sustained" or any such thing!

ALL references to Abraham are in the form of family relationship so that those who believe in Christ AS Abraham believed - are FELLOW heirs of the same family PROMISES. (see Romans 9)

What was the promise that God gave to Abraham:

Genesis 12:2-3 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
--All the familes of the earth includes the Gentiles.

Indeed the "FAMILY" analogy applies - because of the fellow heirs - of the FAMILY promises.

But the ROOT and "gives life" illustration applies to Christ alone - and Christ Himself shows this in John 15.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

On the contrary - Paul states clearly in 1Cor 10 that the rock 'that followed them was CHRIST' for they all "drank from same Spiritual Rock".

God the Son was from eternity past -- no beginning - and no end.

It is Christ that is the foundation of the people of God from Adam until this very day.

IF Romans 11 had said "Abraham is your father -- you are not Abraham's father" you might have a point.

That is not the symbol used.

Not even Catholics of the 21st century can understand that (1Cor 10) verse, and you think it is that clear to the OT Jews. It wasn't written in OT times Bob. They had no idea that "that rock was Christ." That was a mystery hidden to them. Paul is teaching this to the Corinthians for the first time.

No one denies those truths today. But to affirm that the OT saints had a thorough knowledge of Christology is absurd!!

It does. You just refuse to accept it.

1. Far be it from me to limit the Bible to whatever Catholics claim.
2. Christ said of ABRAHAM "Abraham SAW my day and was glad"
3. Paul said that CHRIST WAS the rock that followed Israel.
4. Christ said HE WAS the "I AM" of the Old Testament.
5. John says that NO one has ever seen the FATHER - so all the visible appearances of YHWH in the O.T are in fact God the Son.

You already admit above that we all know that LIFE does not come from Abraham to believing Jews - and Gentiles - but from Adam to this very day LIFE comes only from Christ.

That is a big step in seeing just where OSAS fails to survive in Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This keeps coming up - in connection with the fact that both believing Jew and believing Gentile - all are in the same olive tree - (the Church of God -- = the body of Christ) - and all draw life from Christ.

John 15
1 ""I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 ""Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "" You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "" Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 ""I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 ""If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob, I will post the scripture and then go back for commentary, so that we can both utilize the text.

If you or anybody else is fast at typing (I am not), or knows how to insert the scripture (I do not), feel free to post them, this will greatly help me.

John 15:1-I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

Hi Darrell - If you would like a faster method - you can click on this link
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/

Then type in whatever text - whatever version you like.

Then you can copy paste the results directly onto your post here!

:godisgood:

2-Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Sounds a little like Romans 11. The imagery is identical. The outcome of those "taken away" pictures eternal judgement...they are burned. This always speak of eternal condemnation when people are spoken of, not to be confused with the trying of works by fire.

What is significant in this, and might be better understood if it came after v.5 is that all who are in Christ will bear fruit...those who are not will not bear fruit.

Those who are in Him will be pruned, not cast forth and burned.

Your example of "NOT in ME" branches being removed and then cast into the fire - substantially CHANGES the example Christ gives into the following

"some branches are IN Me and some are just lying on the ground - My Father removes those branches lying around. Of course all the branches IN ME bear fruit. All the branches NOT IN ME do not bear any fruit because they are just lying around on the ground disconnected from life.

So they are then REMOVED from the ground and cast into the fire".

Had the text actauly been written in the way that you suppose - it would have fit OSAS instead of contradicting it.

The key point in the Bible example is that branches IN Christ consist of those who choose to persevere in accepting life and those who at some point decide against it - and are later removed. All accepted Christ in order to ENTER in order to be found "IN Christ" to start with. But not all persevere in choosing to continually recieve life and bear fruit. When branches IN Christ turn away from that source of life - they have no fruit - they are later purged from Christ.

"You have been SEVERED FROM Christ you have FALLEN FROM Grace" Gal 5:4

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the link.

I know it is hard to get across wha I'm trying to point out. As you said, seeing it from one viewpoint shows OSAS does not contradict scripture.

While I would like for you to see this, again, I won't belabor the point. This is something that the Spirit of God teaches the heart. It is a matter of resting in Him completely.

Again, the imagery of John 15 and Romans 11 are identical: it shows a group that is by all apparent outward signs in Him.

But "they are not all of Israel."

They say they are Jews and do lie, they are of the synagogue of Satan.

The test of time proves them to be false, and they are thus cut out.

What I tried to point out is this:

Those who abide are not cot off, they are pruned, but they remain in Him.

Those (like Judas) who are false, are cut out, and burned.

It is still contrasting the lost and the saved; the true and the false.

I will be back later to look at Galatians with you.

Just wondering, where do you get "you are severed from Christ" in Galatians 5:4?

God bless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Darrell C, could you give us your take on the verse in question, and tell us what it means when it says “Christ has become of no effect unto you’, and what ‘fallen from grace’ indicates? Thanks.

 

[Darrell C]

Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


Darrell C, could you give us your take on the verse in question, and tell us what it means when it says “Christ has become of no effect unto you’, and what ‘fallen from grace’ indicates? Thanks.

Hi Heavenly Pilgrim,

Ultimately context will settle the question.

The overpowering context is: "You cannot be justified by the law or the keeping of the law."

5:1-Stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Some would liken the liberty of this verse with license to sin. It is nothing of the sort. It is the freedom we have from the bondage of the law.

It always amazes me that a book like Galatians can be so misconstrued as to denigrate the effectiveness of the Cross. This passage glorifies the Cross and His work.

5:2-Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

This is a big hint as to what Paul is trying to convey.

5:3-For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

The issue at hand is not about the daily life of a Christian, it is about justification. Paul is concerned for these people, enough that he questions whether they are in Christ.

4:19-My little children,, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
20-I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21-Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Paul goes on to give a contrast between the law and the promise.

This contrast carries over to chapter five, and when we approach our verse, if we have kept it in context, we will not fail to grasp Paul's intent.

Picking back up in v.4...

KJV
4-Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

NIV
4-You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Interlinear Bible
4-you who are justified by law are deprived of all effect from Christ-you fell from grace.

While katargeo has a connotaion of separation, to make it mean a severing from Christ of those in Him is in contradiction with teachings of scripture elsewhere.

Which is why the translators used the idea of "Christ is useless to those who seek to be justified by the law". This concept is not in contradiction with scripture elsewhere, and most Christians will cede the point that you cannot be saved by the Law.

Hope that helps.

God bless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darrell, Almost thou persuadeth me to become a ________ (whatever it is that you are.:smilewinkgrin

Seriously, You come across in an excellent manner, with a reasoned approach that I find much agreement with.

Darrell: Which is why the translators used the idea of "Christ is useless to those who seek to be justified by the law". This concept is not in contradiction with scripture elsewhere, and most Christians will cede the point that you cannot be saved by the Law.

HP: Here I ‘might’ take exception with you. Could the ‘possibility’ exist 'this' is a passage that might be used to interpret other more obscure passages, instead of the other way around? Remember now, I am just asking concerning the realm of ‘possibilities.’

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell, Almost thou persuadeth me to become a ________ (whatever it is that you are.:smilewinkgrin

Seriously, You come across in an excellent manner, with a reasoned approach that I find much agreement with.


HP: Here I ‘might’ take exception with you. Could the ‘possibility’ exist 'this' is a passage that might be used to interpret other more obscure passages, instead of the other way around? Remember now, I am just asking concerning the realm of ‘possibilities.’

Hi Heavenly Pilgrim,

(thats funny, {put "Christian" in the blank}))

I would very much say that this passage can be used to clarify others. Compare scripture with scripture.

For example, when asked how one obtains eternal life, our Lord implies the keeping of certain commandments.

Was He advocating eternal life by keeping the commandments?

I don't think so.

Rather, He proved this man's pride in thinking he had.

Scripture indicates both that if one could keep the commandments, he would be saved, and that no man can keep the commandments.

Galatians 2:21 makes it clear: 21-I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

If one could, Christ need not have suffered.

Galatians is a rebuke to those who would try.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Darrell.

A short response to your post - hopefully this goes in before the thread gets closed.

Again, the imagery of John 15 and Romans 11 are identical: it shows a group that is by all apparent outward signs in Him.

But "they are not all of Israel."

They say they are Jews and do lie, they are of the synagogue of Satan.

Those quotes are not from John 15 or Romans 11.

But suppose that the "you stand only by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as you seem to suggest above.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

Those who abide are not cot off, they are pruned, but they remain in Him.

All in John 15 are "branches in Me"

And in Romans 11 -- all the gentiles addressed are those who "stand only by your faith".

Those (like Judas) who are false, are cut out, and burned.

Cut out from what?

It is still contrasting the lost and the saved; the true and the false.

Your "synagogue of Satan" language contrasted with "real believers abiding in Christ" is a perfect way to discuss the lost and then the saved.

So it is instructive that the Romans 11 text uses "you stand only by your faith" alone - no other designator is given to the Gentiles that he is addressing.

However your example shows the language that would be needed if the intent was "some of you gentiles are the synagogue of satan and some others are in fact standing by faith. To those who are standing by faith I say - Fear for if He did not spare them neither will he spare you".

Even in that case - the only ones in a position "to fall" are those "standing by faith" not those already in the synagogue of Satan.

Just wondering, where do you get "you are severed from Christ" in Galatians 5:4?

NASB
Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrell.

A short response to your post - hopefully this goes in before the thread gets closed.

Hi Bob, If it closes, just start another one called eternal or not? or some such. I never tire of this topic, and believe if you can look at it from a different perspectice, you might see what I am trying to get at. I know a lot of people believe as you do, and I don't look down on them for that (though I do think ultimately it is not too far from catholic tradition that you are saved by Jesus...plus).

On the flip side, those of us that hold to eternal security in Christ are branded as teaching license to sin, and that is just not true. God makes us holy in a progressive manner, and I may not be sinless, but I am not the sinner I was 15 years ago. The presence of God in my life has changed my life in a significant way.

Those quotes are not from John 15 or Romans 11.

This is true, but the reality applies just the same.

In Rom. 11 and John 15, we are looking at those who are said to gain no effect from Christ, they are not his.

Compare Matt. 7-

Matthew 7:12-23 (King James Version)

12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Jesus dealt with Israel according to the Law. They looked for temporal salvation, their hearts did not recognize their need for spiritual salvation. Does the Lord teach salvation by works here? Why would He teach this to Israel and allow the gentiles to be saved by grace?

I submit that He dealt with them in fulfillment of the Law, and showed them the spiritual truth of the law, i.e. "You have heard it said...but I say unto you."

The rich young ruler thought he had kept the law, so the Lord addressed an area in which he had not...he worshipped his possesions more than God.

13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

"I am the way, truth, and life...", Jesus is the strait gate.

14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Here we have those who appear to be of God, but they are not. On the outside all is finery, but inwardly...

16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Here the imagery is similar to the wheat and the tares.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Again the fire represents eternal separation.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Personally I think that some of these will do the things they boast of...the Lord doesn't say they didn't do these things, only...

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That He never knew them. It is a contrast between true and false. And if you give me the chance, I think I can show you why. Hebrews 10:26 and 6:1-6 are used to oppose eternal security. These passages are by far much easier to see the contrast than in the ones we have looked at so far.

But suppose that the "you stand only by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as you seem to suggest above.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

It suggests nothing of the sort.

All in John 15 are "branches in Me"

All Israel is "in Him". This is the point you are missing. The tree represents the people of God, as Old Testament imagery suggests. If you would like verses, I will supply them for you. The imagery is the key to both passages, and does not suggest born-again believers to be "severed".

It is the gentiles who are standing by faith, just as those who are truly the people of God among the Jews.

Those of Israel who knew not God and rejected Jesus Christ were cut off.

Those of the Gentiles who know not God and reject Jesus will likewise be cut off.

And in Romans 11 -- all the gentiles addressed are those who "stand only by your faith".

To make this the meaning would also be to say all gentiles stand by faith.

Cut out from what?

It is no different than the wheat and the tares. They are taken and burned, as are the false prophets of Matt. 7.

But they are not in Christ.


Hi again Bob, I cut off (no pun intended) the rest because this is getting long.

Hang in with this topic, you might just change your mind...

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Bob,

Again, the imagery of John 15 and Romans 11 are identical: it shows a group that is by all apparent outward signs in Him.

But "they are not all of Israel."

They say they are Jews and do lie, they are of the synagogue of Satan.

The test of time proves them to be false, and they are thus cut out.

What I tried to point out is this:

Those who abide are not cot off, they are pruned, but they remain in Him.

Those (like Judas) who are false, are cut out, and burned.

It is still contrasting the lost and the saved; the true and the false.

The lost vs saved group in Romans 11 is as follows

1. Lost -- those unbelieving Jews that were "removed" that were "not spared".

2. Saved - those who "stand by their faith alone".

Anyone that can look at these texts and imagine that they are not talking about "you gentiles" that are "wild branches" that "ARE GRAFTED IN" to the very place FROM which SOME Jews fell -- is using something other than exegesis to study the Bible.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, [b]I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. [/B]


15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

1. The target audience is the Gentile reader - believers in Rome.
2. Gentile Believers in Rome that stand ONLY by their faith.
3. Gentile Believers in Rome that have been cut off from the wild tree where they started.
4. Believers in room that HAVE BEEN grafted into to the olive tree - the body of Christ - the ONE spiritual Israel of God.
5. Believers that have been warned about the risk of falling from that position -- in the same way that others before them had fallen IF they forget that they are standing "by their faith alone".

But suppose that the "you stand only by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as you seem to suggest above.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

But suppose that the "you stand only by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as you seem to suggest above.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed".

It suggests nothing of the sort.

Well I am open to the details of how your solution maps to what we find in Romans 11 regarding those who stand only by their faith.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Hi Darrell -

In Rom. 11 and John 15, we are looking at those who are said to gain no effect from Christ, they are not his.

Well that is certainly true of those "who were not spared" as the text says.

Those who "were removed" -- were removed "for unbelief". Those jews that are not like Paul, and Peter, and John, etc.

However as the chapter says "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief".

Here the imagery is similar to the wheat and the tares.

18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Again the fire represents eternal separation.

20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Agreed. That is the "lost state" regardless of whether we are talking about OSAS compliant scenarios or not.

Hi again Bob, I cut off (no pun intended) the rest because this is getting long.

Hang in with this topic, you might just change your mind...

God bless.

Right on my friend -- I am "hanging in there".

I am not as difficult to convince as some might be thinking - I just need to find the salient point of the argument "in the text" to accept it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

The deleted comments by myself were way off target. I had read the wrong reference. Sorry.

I believe BR has pointed out the important problems with Darrell's post in a clear and concise manner so I will leave it at that.:thumbsup:

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Bob,

Okay, I see you will not be convinced on this one.

How about another?

Certainly your opposition to eternal security doesn't hang on Rom. 11 and John 15?

Please don't use Galatians either, this book is clearly speaking to those who are trying to be justified by the law, and rebuked for it.

So, where to next?

God bless.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darrell, why move on just yet. Why not answer his objections to what you stated?

Like this comment by BR:

BR"But suppose that the "you stand only by your faith" comment in Romans 11 - could be imagined to apply to "the synagogue of Satan" as you seem to suggest above.

The problem with that - is that it appears to be telling the synagogue of Satan that they need to persevere in their present condition LEST they be "removed "

How might you respond Darrell?