At judgement, are men condemned for sin or for unbelief?

[Skandelon]

Before you say it, I realize unbelief is a sin, but that is not the point of the question. The point of the question is to discover what Scripture reveals about the reason some will not enter Heaven. Is it because they have broken God's law (sinned) or because of unbelief? This thread was sparked by another thread between Archangel and me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skandelon
the bible doesn't say we are being judged for Adam's sin or our failure to keep the law, but for our unbelief. We all agree that God could condemn us all justly for not keeping the law. This is not about what God could do, this is about what God promises he will do. He judges us based upon our response to his revelation...His call for all of us to repent and believe.

Archangel's Response: We are judged for Adam's sin.

Romans 5:12-14 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— 13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. 14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Paul is clear that those who lived from Adam to Moses--though there was no Law (as in the OT Law, that's Paul's common usage)--still died.

Adam's sin was imputed to all his progeny. This is why everyone died. Let's say that Adam had a great-great grandson named, for lack of a better term, Fred. There was no Law in Fred's time, no rules to break, and, therefore, no sin to commit. Yet, Fred died in due time. If there was no sin on Fred's account, why did he die? Because Adam's sin spread to all men and all men are counted guilty before God for what Adam did.

Now, I know you Arminian-types don't like this notion of the imputation of Adam's sin. However, if you don't accept the imputation of Adam's sin and the guilt that entails, you cannot hope to accept the imputation of Christ's righteousness.

Well, some of us "Arminian-types" believe what the bible says when it speaks of Christ appeasing the wrath of God for sin. So, while we acknowledge the imputation of Adam's sin, we also acknowledge the sacrifice of atonement offered for the whole world.

Jesus said, "I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness. "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day." (Jn 12)

What condemn's mankind on the last day? Is it the imputed sin of Adam? NOPE! What does He say? The "very word which I spoke will condemn him." What is that "word?" The gospel truth!

"For I did not come to judge the world" based upon the "righteousness that comes through the law"....or Adam's imputed sin. But instead there is a "new righteousness being revealed" (Rm 3) which is not from LAW but through faith...this is what Christ has revealed as the "WORD." It is by that "NEW RIGHTEOUSNESS" that "WORD OF CHRIST" by which we are judged. If someone is condemned, he is condemned for his UNBELIEF (Rm 11:23; Heb 3 etc)

19 So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief!

To these passages I would also add:

John 3:18 says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

1 Cor. 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[webdog]

I would also add to the Scripture you posted on unbelief sending man to hell Romans 1 which states they exchanged the truth for a lie, and 2 Thess. 2 where it states they refused to love and accept the truth that could have saved them (v. 10).

 

[Skandelon]

I would also add to the Scripture you posted on unbelief sending man to hell Romans 1 which states they exchanged the truth for a lie, and 2 Thess. 2 where it states they refused to love and accept the truth that could have saved them (v. 10).

Yes, thank you:

2 Thess 2:10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

And

Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen

So, God is not condemning them because of the imputed sin of Adam, but because they traded the clearly revealed truth for a lie and followed their own lusts. God THEN gave them over to those lusts. Their hearts BECOME defiled. They are "without excuse" because they "clearly saw" and "understood" God's revelation of Himself.

Calvinism removes that clarity and understanding with their doctrine of "Total Depravity" and gives men back a perfect excuse. "I could not understand because I wasn't regenerated." "I could not clearly see because the gospel must be 'spiritually discerned' and I'm just a 'natural man.'"

 

[AnotherBaptist]

...Calvinism removes that clarity and understanding with their doctrine of "Total Depravity" and gives men back a perfect excuse. "I could not understand because I wasn't regenerated." "I could not clearly see because the gospel must be 'spiritually discerned' and I'm just a 'natural man.'"

Actually, it's only one of two excuses. The other would be, "Your Son atoned for the sins of others, but not my own. That's why I could never be Saved."
Or, as the sign outside a Baptist church put it:


Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
Jesus Died for me
But not for you

- John Calvin

 

[Skandelon]

Actually, it's only one of two excuses. The other would be, "Your Son atoned for the sins of others, but not my own. That's why I could never be Saved."
Or, as the sign outside a Baptist church put it:


Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
Jesus Died for me
But not for you

- John Calvin

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[The Archangel]

Actually, it's only one of two excuses. The other would be, "Your Son atoned for the sins of others, but not my own. That's why I could never be Saved."
Or, as the sign outside a Baptist church put it:


Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
Jesus Died for me
But not for you

- John Calvin

A sad, untrue, and offensive caricature.

 

[pinoybaptist]

A sad, untrue, and offensive caricature.

Not for them, though.
They're the "Christians", the "followers" of Christ, who are disciples of "love".
They'll bristle and rebuke if someone so much as derides somebody because of race, or social status, but Calvinists and Doctrine of Grace adherents ?
they're not worth dung to them, they love to knock you down and then show off how loving they are by telling you they really love you.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Here are Scriptures from Revelation 20 about the judgment at the Great White Throne.

This is promulgation of judgment for Satan and his angels. Judgment that was finished at the cross.

as for those who followed Satan, who belonged to Satan from the very beginning, the same Scriptures state the whys and wherefores of their condemnation.

Revelation 20:11-15 -

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away ; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened : and another book was opened , which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hellhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/kjv/revelation/20.html#fn-descriptionAnchor-a delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The wicked are judged according to their works, which are dead, and done apart from Christ. They were not accepted in Christ. Their lives are not hid in Christ, their sins have not been washed away by the blood of Christ.
It is not only their wicked thoughts, or their wicked works of murder, rape, lying, abominations, and other evil of which even the elect and even you self-righteous hypocrites and revilers of the doctrine of Grace, are capable of.
No one is incapable of wicked works, except Christ, therefore, any good done must be done in Christ, and were it not for Christ, none of us on this board can expect mercy or acceptance.
Those who were spared were spared not because their names were in the Book of Life but because they are in Christ and therefore they are known of God in His mind where He etched their names from the foundation of the world, therefore it is called a book of Life.

 

[OldRegular]

:
Calvinism removes that clarity and understanding with their doctrine of "Total Depravity" and gives men back a perfect excuse. "I could not understand because I wasn't regenerated." "I could not clearly see because the gospel must be 'spiritually discerned' and I'm just a 'natural man.'"

I don't recall GOd accepting any of Job's excuses. In fact I think HE basically told Job to sit down and shut up. The Apostle Paul says it thus:

Romans 9:18-24
18. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20. Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21. Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22. What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23. And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24. Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

But to answer the question in your OP I believe those cast into the lake of fire are judged for their unbelief. However unbelief is the fruit of sin!

 

[pinoybaptist]

The wicked are judged not only for their unbelief, or their sins against the moral laws of God, or their sins against everyone else.
The works mentioned for which they are judged are the works of sacrifices and offerings that are done apart from the holiness of Christ for there is nothing we can bring to God of our own works.
All must be done in Christ and through Christ.
I have said this and say it again, the elect are spared from God's wrath not because of their faith, but because they have a Savior.
The unelect are subjected to God's wrath at judgment not because of their unbelief, but because they have no Savior.
That's just how it is.

PS - I learned that from the preaching of a 96 year old country boy who never got past 3rd grade and never had any fancy letters in front of his name. He went on to glory at 103, preaching the word all the way to 102.

 

[AnotherBaptist]

A sad, untrue, and offensive caricature.

It wasn't my church. We have 5-pointers. Which is what the sign should have been labeled as, not John Calvin. Below is a link to an excellent paper which I believe shows Calvin didn't come up with the limited atonement idea. It arose out of the "need" created by the other 4 points. Otherwise the whole system collapses into universalism.

A Word for the World

 

[Robert Snow]

A sad, untrue, and offensive caricature.

How can you, claiming to be a Calvinist, say this is untrue? It is at the very heart of Calvinism, Christ died for some, of whom you consider yourself one, but not for all. The sad thing is that this encapsulates the error of Calvinism in a nutshell. It's just something most Calvinists either won't face or hates to admit.

 

[The Archangel]

How can you, claiming to be a Calvinist, say this is untrue? It is at the very heart of Calvinism, Christ died for some, of whom you consider yourself one, but not for all. The sad thing is that this encapsulates the error of Calvinism in a nutshell. It's just something most Calvinists either won't face or hates to admit.

Not at all. Your above post wrongly assumes two things: 1. We know who the elect are, which we don't, and 2. We don't share the gospel, which we absolutely do (See William Carey).

What was posted was a gross caricature of Calvinism and that caricature, not reality, is what you think Calvinism is.

The reality is that Calvinists passionately engage in missions and evangelism and we do so indiscriminately (ie. to the masses, not the "elect").

The fact is that none of us know who the elect might be. As Spurgeon said--God did not paint a colored stripe down the backs of the elect. So, we don't know who they are. We preach Christ to the masses; we call for a response to Christ to the masses; and we see the harvest that God Himself provides.

Please get you facts straight.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

He's got his facts straight, it is you that is in denial. Many prominent Calvinists themselves have been confused as to whether God's invitations for all to be saved are sincere, and have had to create many inventions to reconcile a general invitiation with a limited atonement.

All modern Calvinists agree in declaring the universality of the gospel invitations. God can, but does not save all whom He invites. Consequently arises the difficulty concerning which Dr. Chalmers says "there must be a sad misunderstanding somewhere," while Dr. Dick declares that the Calvinist, who is determined to see "no difficulty here, has not, as he probably imagines, more understanding than other men, but less." "The many declarations in which God exhorts man to keep his commandments, appear to him ironical, as if a father were to say to his child, 'Come,' while he knows that he can not come!" Of those to whom God does not give efficacious grace, Calvin says, "He directs his voice to them, but it is that they may become more deaf; he kindles a light, but it is that they may be made blind; he publishes his doctrine, but it is that they may be more besotted; he applies a remedy, but it is that they may not be healed."

Rev. John Sladen informs his hearers, "All that God designed to save he saves; but he actually saves some only, therefore, he designed to save only some of fallen Adam's children, for, if we consider God as infinite in wisdom, and of almighty power, there can not be a more rational way of arguing than from his acts to his designs.' This is similar to Symimgton's argument, who says in behalf of a limited atonement, "The event is the best interpreter of the divine intention." Dr. Nehemiah Adams says, "Not one more, not one less will be saved than God purposes" "God never designed to save every individual; since, if he had, every individual would and must be saved; for his counsel shall stand and he will do all his pleasure."

Oh, you can preach that God wants to save all men, but you don't believe it. You cannot sincerely invite any person to believe on Jesus Christ as Paul told the Philipian jailer, because you cannot be sure that God ever elected that person and will give them the ability to believe.

If Paul would have been a Calvinist he would have honestly told the Philipian jailer to do nothing whatsoever, and if he was one of the fortunate elect God would enable him to believe on Christ. But he would have also had to tell him that there was no possible way for him to know if this would ever occur.

Do Calvinist's preach this from the pulpit? I doubt it. But if you were to tell the truth, this is what you would have to tell people.

 

[Winman]

He's got his facts straight, it is you that is in denial. Many prominent Calvinists themselves have been confused as to whether God's invitations for all to be saved are sincere, and have had to create many inventions to reconcile a general invitiation with a limited atonement.

All modern Calvinists agree in declaring the universality of the gospel invitations. God can, but does not save all whom He invites. Consequently arises the difficulty concerning which Dr. Chalmers says "there must be a sad misunderstanding somewhere," while Dr. Dick declares that the Calvinist, who is determined to see "no difficulty here, has not, as he probably imagines, more understanding than other men, but less." "The many declarations in which God exhorts man to keep his commandments, appear to him ironical, as if a father were to say to his child, 'Come,' while he knows that he can not come!" Of those to whom God does not give efficacious grace, Calvin says, "He directs his voice to them, but it is that they may become more deaf; he kindles a light, but it is that they may be made blind; he publishes his doctrine, but it is that they may be more besotted; he applies a remedy, but it is that they may not be healed."

Rev. John Sladen informs his hearers, "All that God designed to save he saves; but he actually saves some only, therefore, he designed to save only some of fallen Adam's children, for, if we consider God as infinite in wisdom, and of almighty power, there can not be a more rational way of arguing than from his acts to his designs.' This is similar to Symimgton's argument, who says in behalf of a limited atonement, "The event is the best interpreter of the divine intention." Dr. Nehemiah Adams says, "Not one more, not one less will be saved than God purposes" "God never designed to save every individual; since, if he had, every individual would and must be saved; for his counsel shall stand and he will do all his pleasure."

Oh, you can preach that God wants to save all men, but you don't believe it. You cannot sincerely invite any person to believe on Jesus Christ as Paul told the Philipian jailer, because you cannot be sure that God ever elected that person and will give them the ability to believe.

If Paul would have been a Calvinist he would have honestly told the Philipian jailer to do nothing whatsoever, and if he was one of the fortunate elect God would enable him to believe on Christ. But he would have also had to tell him that there was no possible way for him to know if this would ever occur.

Do Calvinists preach this from the pulpit? I doubt it. But if you were to tell the truth, this is what you would have to tell people.

 

[webdog]

He's got his facts straight, it is you that is in denial. Many prominent Calvinists themselves have been confused as to whether God's invitations for all to be saved are sincere, and have had to create many inventions to reconcile a general invitiation with a limited atonement.

This was seen just recently here on the BB where canadyjd maintains that Jesus genuine offer of salvation includes keeping the law fully hence offering salvation to all.

 

[Winman]

This was seen just recently here on the BB where canadyjd maintains that Jesus genuine offer of salvation includes keeping the law fully hence offering salvation to all.

If a person could perfectly keep the law 100% throughout their entire lifetime, they would not spiritually die, for the wages of sin is death. No sin, no death.

But the reality is all men do sin, and so the only possible way any man can be saved is through Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Paul says here that if there had been a law given which "could have" given life, then the law that God gave was it.

But importantly, the next verse says the scriptures hath "concluded all under sin". Now, I could be wrong, but I believe this is showing God's foreknowledge. God knew beforehand that all men would sin without exception, that they would have to come in faith to Christ to be saved.

 

[Skandelon]

I agree the Roses are Red poem was a "caricature" of Calvinism and untrue. I took it as a joke. But the list of "excuses" that a reprobate will have on judgement day are legit.

Not at all. Your above post wrongly assumes two things: 1. We know who the elect are, which we don't, and 2. We don't share the gospel, which we absolutely do (See William Carey).

What was posted was a gross caricature of Calvinism and that caricature, not reality, is what you think Calvinism is.

The reality is that Calvinists passionately engage in missions and evangelism and we do so indiscriminately (ie. to the masses, not the "elect").

Historically, however, this is not completely true. Many "Calvinistic" or "Reformed" churches have neglected missions and evangelism. Not all do, but that is an effect of the doctrine that cannot be denied. If you really believe God is going to effectually save all his elect with or without you then naturally the urgency of preaching is lessoned. To deny that fact is not being honest with reality.

BTW, I acknowledge that our views can lead to some other non-biblical extremes if we don't continually fight against them (i.e. Open Theism etc)

It seems to me the OP is being ignored to address a silly poem. Could it be that a caricature is easier to address than the question of this thread?

 

[The Archangel]

He's got his facts straight, it is you that is in denial. Many prominent Calvinists themselves have been confused as to whether God's invitations for all to be saved are sincere, and have had to create many inventions to reconcile a general invitiation with a limited atonement.

Oh, you can preach that God wants to save all men, but you don't believe it. You cannot sincerely invite any person to believe on Jesus Christ as Paul told the Philipian jailer, because you cannot be sure that God ever elected that person and will give them the ability to believe.

If Paul would have been a Calvinist he would have honestly told the Philipian jailer to do nothing whatsoever, and if he was one of the fortunate elect God would enable him to believe on Christ. But he would have also had to tell him that there was no possible way for him to know if this would ever occur.

Do Calvinists preach this from the pulpit? I doubt it. But if you were to tell the truth, this is what you would have to tell people.

You really have no idea, do you. Are you going to presume to tell a Calvinist what we actually believe? That's funny.

Again, you are showing a stolid opposition to fact.

This is just as sad as when you said "Calvinists reject Christ."

We preach Christ to the masses and make the offer of salvation to the masses and trust the Holy Spirit to do His work. That is a fact.

And, we have told you again and again and again that we believe that one must actively repent and believe--a fact that you ignore to push your untrue caricature of us. You are either unwilling or unable to express what we say we actually believe and, instead, you are spreading lies.

How sad that a so-called "brother" does such things.

The Archangel

 

[RAdam]

"If you really believe God is going to effectually save all his elect with or without you then naturally the urgency of preaching is lessoned."

Do you understand the purpose of preaching? You act as if preaching just serves to get people to heaven. Jesus preached to people He knew would end up in hell, and even told some of them they would, but Jesus never lost the urgency in His preaching.

I preach to what I believe are heaven bound people every week and I preach my guts out. I spend hours preparing, and I take the charge to preach very seriously. I believe God will save all of His elect to heaven without the loss of one, but I also believe God has sent forth preachers to rebuke, instruct, correct, and comfort God's people and this is serious work. It's so serious men have died doing it. It's so serious that I give much time over to the work.

If someone neglects the charge to preach, the doctrine shouldn't be blamed, the person should.