At judgement, are men condemned for sin or for unbelief?

[The Archangel]

I agree the Roses are Red poem was a "caricature" of Calvinism and untrue. I took it as a joke. But the list of "excuses" that a reprobate will have on judgment day are legit.

Historically, however, this is not completely true. Many "Calvinistic" or "Reformed" churches have neglected missions and evangelism. Not all do, but that is an effect of the doctrine that cannot be denied. If you really believe God is going to effectually save all his elect with or without you then naturally the urgency of preaching is lessoned. To deny that fact is not being honest with reality.

BTW, I acknowledge that our views can lead to some other non-biblical extremes if we don't continually fight against them (i.e. Open Theism etc)

Every Calvinistic church I know gives huge amounts of time, money, and effort to missions and evangelism. Furthermore, William Carey and his supporters were all Calvinists. So, you assertion that "...[it] is an effect of the doctrine that cannot be denied" is patently false.

Just as you suggest many Arminian churches fell into universalism--and it is possible in your doctrine--because they had not sought to combat the scriptural error of universalism, some Calvinist churches fell into hyper-Calvinism--which is possible (but not normal as you disingenuously suggest)--because they had not sought to combat the error of not doing missions.

If you really believe God is going to effectually save all his elect with or without you then naturally the urgency of preaching is lessoned. To deny that fact is not being honest with reality.

We do not believe God is going to save His elect with or without us! HOLY MOSES! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS TO GET YOU PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THIS!

We believe that we (human believers) are the means by which God chooses to bring the Gospel to people. If we do not go, the Gospel will not be preached. Period. Read Romans 10.

Listen to John Piper and tell me he doesn't preach without urgency. Listen to Mark Dever (who preaches the Gospel in each and every message he preaches--and calls for a response) and tell me he doesn't preach with urgency. Listen to C.J. Mahaney and tell me he doesn't preach with urgency.

Look at the budgets of Bethlehem Baptist Church (Piper) and tell me they don't give to missions. Look at the budget of Capitol Hill Baptist Church and their missions efforts and tell me the almost $1,000,000 per year they give to missions shows they do not passionately engage in missions.

You speak without understanding.

The Archangel

 

[zrs6v4]

I vote men are judged for sin. As you said, unbelief is also a sin. In a sense sin roots from unbelief of what light you have, even if it is simply natural and engrafted evidence God has given to all by His goodness.

I see people going to hell because of the perfect judgement God has for them for not keeping His Law, because that is the requirement to those who live apart from Christ. The must live perfectly and if they dont they will be judged for every sin they have committed. They basically pay their own penalty.

Now many are going to hell for their sins and one of their greatest sins which would be the rejection of their only chance to escape hell- Jesus

The more light someone gets the more hardened they get for their rejection.

 

[Robert Snow]

Not at all. Your above post wrongly assumes two things: 1. We know who the elect are, which we don't, and 2. We don't share the gospel, which we absolutely do (See William Carey).

What was posted was a gross caricature of Calvinism and that caricature, not reality, is what you think Calvinism is.

The reality is that Calvinists passionately engage in missions and evangelism and we do so indiscriminately (ie. to the masses, not the "elect").

The fact is that none of us know who the elect might be. As Spurgeon said--God did not paint a colored stripe down the backs of the elect. So, we don't know who they are. We preach Christ to the masses; we call for a response to Christ to the masses; and we see the harvest that God Himself provides.

Please get you facts straight.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Are you one of the elect?

 

[Skandelon]

Every Calvinistic church I know gives huge amounts of time, money, and effort to missions and evangelism. Furthermore, William Carey and his supporters were all Calvinists. So, you assertion that "...[it] is an effect of the doctrine that cannot be denied" is patently false.

Calm down. I never said it was your doctrine. I said it was a matter of fact that many churches throughout history who hold to Reformed doctrine tended toward this hyperism.

Who do you think William Carey argued with before going on the mission field. At that time he was in the minority.

Just as you suggest many Arminian churches fell into universalism--and it is possible in your doctrine--because they had not sought to combat the scriptural error of universalism, some Calvinist churches fell into hyper-Calvinism--which is possible (but not normal as you disingenuously suggest)--because they had not sought to combat the error of not doing missions.

Did I say "normal?" I simply pointed out the tendency of this doctrine if left unchecked and the facts from history.

We do not believe God is going to save His elect with or without us! HOLY MOSES! HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO SAY THIS TO GET YOU PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND THIS!

Simmer down now. I said "without you"--singular. If you refuse to preach, God will send someone else, right? If he is going to reach an elect one he will do it with our without Archangel, right? That is all I meant.

Listen to John Piper and tell me he doesn't preach without urgency. Listen to Mark Dever (who preaches the Gospel in each and every message he preaches--and calls for a response) and tell me he doesn't preach with urgency. Listen to C.J. Mahaney and tell me he doesn't preach with urgency.

Look at the budgets of Bethlehem Baptist Church (Piper) and tell me they don't give to missions. Look at the budget of Capitol Hill Baptist Church and their missions efforts and tell me the almost $1,000,000 per year they give to missions shows they do not passionately engage in missions.

You speak without understanding.

No, you read my posts without attempting to understand my point. I was an evangelistic Calvinist for 10 years of my life. I went on 4 missionary trips as a Calvinist. I understand. But, I also understand my history and I know the tendency of different doctrinal systems if not kept in check.

Now, try dealing with the passages presented in the OP. Thanks

 

[Skandelon]

I vote men are judged for sin. As you said, unbelief is also a sin. In a sense sin roots from unbelief of what light you have, even if it is simply natural and engrafted evidence God has given to all by His goodness.

I see people going to hell because of the perfect judgement God has for them for not keeping His Law, because that is the requirement to those who live apart from Christ. The must live perfectly and if they dont they will be judged for every sin they have committed. They basically pay their own penalty.

Now many are going to hell for their sins and one of their greatest sins which would be the rejection of their only chance to escape hell- Jesus

The more light someone gets the more hardened they get for their rejection.

Then how do you deal with the many texts presented in the OP which seem to indicate that men are condemned/judged not for sin but for unbelief?

 

[zrs6v4]

Then how do you deal with the many texts presented in the OP which seem to indicate that men are condemned/judged not for sin but for unbelief?

John 3:18 says "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

If you are in a state of belief, you have a propitiation, but if you are not believing then you dont have a propitiation and thus remain in your sin.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

In Adam we all are condemned. In Christ we all are saved. I dont think the purpose was to show that Christ atoned for every single man who ever lived, but rather to show that sin came through Adam and redemption in Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:21-22

2 Cor 5:14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Ill have to hit this one later, I have to be in class. Note I fixed your typo its from 2 Corinthians 5. I will try to comment on it after I spend some thime with it.

 

[RAdam]

"Who do you think William Carey argued with before going on the mission field. At that time he was in the minority."

Orthodox Baptists, that is before he and Andrew Fuller led many of them away from their orthodoxy.

 

[Skandelon]

"Who do you think William Carey argued with before going on the mission field. At that time he was in the minority."

Orthodox Baptists, that is before he and Andrew Fuller led many of them away from their orthodoxy.

Precisely my point. Thank you.

 

[OldRegular]

How can you, claiming to be a Calvinist, say this is untrue? It is at the very heart of Calvinism, Christ died for some, of whom you consider yourself one, but not for all. The sad thing is that this encapsulates the error of Calvinism in a nutshell. It's just something most Calvinists either won't face or hates to admit.

Whether you admit it or not if you are saved you were chosen by GOD to be one of HIS own before the foundation of the world. It is very gracious of GOD not to hold your erroneous belief against you.

 

[OldRegular]

If you really believe God is going to effectually save all his elect with or without you then naturally the urgency of preaching is lessoned.

Perhaps those who believe in the Sovereign Doctrines of Grace are just more obedient to the commands of Scripture than those who believe in Freewillism.

 

[OldRegular]

Are you one of the elect?

If he is not one of the elect he should not be participating on this forum; neither should you!:jesus:

 

[Skandelon]

Perhaps those who believe in the Sovereign Doctrines of Grace are just more obedient to the commands of Scripture than those who believe in Freewillism.

Perhaps.

Is that because God has predetermined you reformers to be more obedient, while He lets us make that decision for ourselves? :laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Perhaps.

Is that because God has predetermined you reformers to be more obedient, while He lets us make that decision for ourselves? :laugh:

I would not brag about it!:laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[RAdam]

Precisely my point. Thank you.

So your point was that the Baptists of today aren't what they once were doctrinally or practically? You are basically admitting that you don't hold to the same practice and beliefs as your Baptist ancestors. That's truly something to be proud of.

 

[Robert Snow]

It is very gracious of GOD not to hold your erroneous belief against you.

I believe the same thing about you!

 

[olegig]

I vote that folks go to hell for their unbelief on the basis of the scriptural evidence presented in the OP.

Its sad to say but even Christians keep sinning after conversion, I admit to sinning each day.
Do I witness to each person I come in contact with???? no
Do I wear a hood over my eyes when I go to the mall with my wife??? no

If folks went to hell on the basis of sin, there would be no one in heaven.

But I also must qualify the above in relation to the question asked by the OP, it says "at judgment"....
I don't feel the Christian has a "judgment" in front of him if the judgment is considered a time when he/she is judged saved or unsaved.
I believe the Christian was judged at conversion, any future judgment involving member of the Body of Chirst will only deal with rewards based on the things done in their life, not salvation.

 

[RAdam]

The elect were judged at the cross where they were declared righteous, or justified.

 

[Amy.G]

The elect were judged at the cross where they were declared righteous, or justified.

No. Sin was judged on the cross. No one is justified apart from faith.

 

[Skandelon]

I still want to hear how Calvinists explain this text:

1 Cor. 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Notice 3 things:

1. God is not counting men's sin against them and we should regard NNE from a worldly point of view.
2. Paul uses words like "persuade" and "appeal," which seem unnecessary when the act of irresistible regeneration would accomplish this.
3. Notice the term "died of all" in this context. Can it possibly be interpreted as "a few people from many nations" and maintain the obvious intent?

 

[RAdam]

No. Sin was judged on the cross. No one is justified apart from faith.

By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, for (because) he shall bear their iniquities.

Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

These are just a few instances in scripture where justification is tied directly to the cross.