• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

2 Kingdoms

webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
AnotherBaptist said:
Fish. Just good or are there both good and bad? Fish of just one kind or all different kinds?
Click to expand...
I think you are reading too much into an analogy. Wicked perish, the righteous do not...there is clearly a difference. These are not two different characteristics of the justified where based on ones works (or lack of), one group of justified people spend the millenial reign in outer darkness.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
RAdam said:
Ah, so now we get down to the heart of the problem. It isn't that the scripture uses two different phrases to describe the kingdom, oh no. It's that some are unable to understand what Jesus taught. In your misunderstanding you create a separate kingdom to settle it all. It's mishandling of scripture at its worst.
Click to expand...
This is a common flaw in the eschatology of those holding to Free Grace theology. While I agree with much of their soteriology, the eschatology is blatantly false.
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
RAdam said:
Well I don't know of many free grace believers that advocate a two kingdom idea like this guy does.
Click to expand...
Oh, it's a prominent view. Just read Charles Stanley's take on it and others at www.faithalone.org There were many here on the BB 3 years ago or so who were banned after the BB deemed it a "damnable heresy" (I don't agree with that, but it's not my board)
 
M

MovieProducer

New Member
webdog said:
Now you've lost me :)
You believe our salvation is secured by good works?
Click to expand...

No, I'm saying the opposite. If K of H and K of G mean the same thing, then a parable about the K of H would be teaching that our salvation is by works. This difficulty vanishes if we acknowledge that these two manifestly different phrases actually carry different meanings, instead of conflating them. I'm simply beginning with the premise that different words mean different things.
 
R

RAdam

New Member
MovieProducer said:
No, I'm saying the opposite. If K of H and K of G mean the same thing, then a parable about the K of H would be teaching that our salvation is by works. This difficulty vanishes if we acknowledge that these two manifestly different phrases actually carry different meanings, instead of conflating them. I'm simply beginning with the premise that different words mean different things.
Click to expand...

What parable teaches salvation by works?
 
M

MovieProducer

New Member
RAdam said:
Ah, so now we get down to the heart of the problem. It isn't that the scripture uses two different phrases to describe the kingdom, oh no. It's that some are unable to understand what Jesus taught. In your misunderstanding you create a separate kingdom to settle it all. It's mishandling of scripture at its worst.
Click to expand...

I find this pretty insulting. Amy asked a question, and I've offered my best understanding that I've developed in good conscience after several years of interest on this topic. I think you're the one who fails to understand the scriptural teaching on this, but I don't see any reason to turn this into an insult; it's a natural consequence of the fact that we disagree. I'll be happy to grant you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are mistaken in good conscience, but I'd appreciate it if you'd keep your sideline potshots to yourself.
 
R

RAdam

New Member
How did I insult you? The reason given for this two kingdom view is that without it there would be some sort of contradiction. Any scriptural postion that is born out of necessity of another position rather than being born out of scriptural evidence is subject to the charge of being based on wrong assumptions and misinterpretation. That's not saying the one advocating it is an idiot, but scripture doesn't work that way.

Jesus never taught salvation by works. The erroneous idea that He did has led to this error. If a proper interpretation had been taken on those parables, the two kingdom error wouldn't have come about.
 
S

Steven2006

New Member
MovieProducer said:
And the Holy Ghost took the trouble to specify different words. "God," and "heaven." Sure, we can just blow this off as an accidental meaningless difference, but I suggest it bears close study in case it was not a meaningless choice of words.
Click to expand...

I asked you this yesterday but never received an answer. Basically you are saying that nobody could really have understood what Jesus was truly teaching until Matthew translated it some approximately 30 years later?

Secondly, nobody is saying to "blow it off as meaningless". I have quoted people that say it was important because Matthew was writing to a Jewish audience and being sensitive to that. By you taking that view it only revels that you won't even allow yourself to consider another logical reason.
 
S

Steven2006

New Member
AnotherBaptist said:
We'll part company here. It DOES matter what the Greek word was/is. Because Jesus didn't speak just one word, he spoke two concerning kingdoms.
Click to expand...

"But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

"But when Jesus saw [it], he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."

"But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God."

So what you are saying we are to believe is that in this incident, Jesus actually said the sentence basically twice in two different ways that meant two entirely different things? Yet is was not important enough for any of the witnesses to record both of these important facts.
 
A

AnotherBaptist

New Member
webdog said:
I think you are reading too much into an analogy. Wicked perish, the righteous do not...there is clearly a difference. These are not two different characteristics of the justified where based on ones works (or lack of), one group of justified people spend the millenial reign in outer darkness.
Click to expand...

I think not.

Matthew 22:10 "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. 11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he *said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. 13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Click to expand...

In most cases where the kingdom of heaven is mentioned there is both good and bad, good and evil.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
O

olegig

New Member
RAdam,

God never intended to set up a physical Kingdom. This was an error the Jews held,
I always wondered who put in all those references to a land of milk and honey. Now I know, the Jews did it.
I suppose it was quiet easy for them since they did bring us the scriptures.

The 1st Century Jew had the idea that Messiah was going to come, set up a wordly kingdom, liberate them from the Romans, rule from the wordly Jerusalem, and make them a sovereign nation again.
I agree, but now I am wondering where on earth did they get such an idea if not from the scriptures... Oh, yea, they wrote 'em.....

They were wrong and Jesus told them repeatedly they were wrong.
Well, Jesus had His priorities straight,,first spiritual, then physical...

When He taught about His kingdom He always taught it is a spiritual kingdom.
I see,,,but how does one spiritualize the following:

Matthew 5:39-42 (King James Version)
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.

God is never, ever going to set up a physical kingdom on this earth, that was never His plan and it is not now a part of His plans.
So now I guess you are going to tell me the garden of Eden was only spiritual.
I guess it must have been spiritual because we can't seem to find it anywhere.

How far do you carry this spiritual-not-physical thing? How do you decide what is to be taken spiritually and not physically?
Was the cross spiritual or physical?
Was the resurrection spiritual or physical?
Where, and how do you draw the line?

Oh, yes, how would you spiritualize the following?

Jeremiah 31:35-37 (King James Version)

35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:

36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
 
webdog

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Amy.G said:
I thought of that too. Say it aint' so!!!!
Click to expand...
How many times was he banned under different name...6?

***Moderator note: Please stick to the subject and not be concerned with who and who is not JJ***
 
Last edited by a moderator:
B

blackbird

Active Member
***Moderator note: This thread was closed and is now reopened----just wondering if the Moderator who closes any particular thread---would you please state reason for closing---it would make things run a little smoother around here---me thinks

Bro. David
aka blackbird
moderator
 
S

Steven2006

New Member
I am still trying to understand the reasoning behind the thought process that this wasn't known until the Holy Spirit instructed Matthew, that what Jesus said was not one, but two different meanings (heaven & God). IMHO it doesn't make sense that nobody understood what Jesus was teaching until approx thirty years later when Matthew was instructed to say so.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top