2 Kingdoms

[Steven2006]

Some of the parables illustrate ways in which the two kingdoms are similar, and this is one of them. There are other parables that illustrate ways in which they are different.

My understanding of the kingdoms is imperfect, but try this exercise. Postulate that the Kingdom of Heaven is a political entity, an actual kingdom on the earth with a territory, boundaries, and human subjects. And postulate that the Kingdom of God is the present spiritual power of God acting in and upon individual believers; a relationship between believers and God with a corporate expression in the Church. Now approach the parables in Matthew and the parallels in the other gospels and note the distinctions and similarities in the kingdoms.

So you are saying that nobody could have understood what Jesus was saying until Matthew later interpreted it some fifty years later and put it in writing?

 

[AnotherBaptist]

I think the point is that the Jews couldn't just claim a place in heaven because they were born Jews in the line of Abraham. We are not saved by who our parents are, or by any family tradition or by belonging to a certain church.

I'll give you a cookie (or a gold star if you prefer) if you tell me how this relates to why the greek word here is "heaven" and not "God". They still end up in the outer darkness.

 

[Steven2006]

I'll give you a cookie (or a gold star if you prefer) if you tell me how this relates to why the greek word here is "heaven" and not "God". They still end up in the outer darkness.

Your are missing the point. It doesn't matter what the Greek word is, what we are saying is in these examples that Jesus said a word. That same word was translated using two different words between the Gospel authors. It doesn't change the fact that Jesus spoke only the one word.

 

[webdog]

Steven gets the cookie

 

[Marcia]

(cough) Be careful:

Well, one reason I wrote that is because if I'm wrong, I'll find out soon enough here :laugh: That's one way to get information fast. It's also why I worded it "as far as I know."

Revelation 1:6 and He has made us {to be} a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him {be} the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Thanks for the citation. I am not sure this is the same as the Kingdom of God, however. Will have to look into it.

 

[Marcia]

The church is a part of the Kingdom.

I think the church is distinct from the Kingdom, which is the rule of God. The church is not the Kingdom but the Kingdom does work through the church.

 

[Marcia]

For those of you who are here simply refuting there is a difference, can you tell me how a son of the kingdom of God ends up in the outer darkness? How did they become one (a son of the kingdom of God) in the first place?
.....I welcome any interpretations.

One commentary on Matt. 8:11 states this:

Subjects of the kingdom (literally "sons of the kingdom"; compare Mt 13:38; 23:15) refers to Jewish people-those who expected salvation based on their descent from Abraham (3:9). The damnation of those who thought themselves destined for the kingdom sounded a sober warning to nationalist Jews of Matthew's day; it sounds a similar warning to complacent Christians today (Goldingay 1977:254; compare 13:38).

http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Matt/Roman-Exception

Another:

The phrase "sons of the kingdom" mentioned here refers to non-believing Jews of Jesus' day. The "sons" part can best be understood with reference to Hebrew and Old Testament usage. In that language and environment, it is very common to refer to an entire group of people (whether truly related by descent or not) as "sons of ___ " = Hebrew "beney- _____". For example, you may have heard of the B'nai B'rith organization - it means in Hebrew "sons of the covenant" or in English terms "those under the covenant". So to make a long story short, the Israelites are often described in the OT as "the sons of Israel" and this = "Israelites" of all ages and sexes (not just young males). That is clearly the construction which Jesus is using here and elsewhere as well (it is and was a very well-known Hebrew idiom). What He means in particular by "sons of the kingdom" is that they (His reluctant Jewish audience in contrast to centurion whose faith He found remarkable) were by birth destined for the Kingdom of God, but in spite of their privileged birth and position, still lacked faith in God's promised Messiah come in the flesh (the only Way into the kingdom: Jn.14:6), and therefore could not and would not enter the Kingdom of God.

So there is much sorrow and irony in Jesus' words here. In spite of His and His Father's desire for them to be saved and to enter into the kingdom for which they were born, by persisting in unbelief they are essentially refusing to do so even in spite of the fact that very many of us who do not have the honor and privilege of Jewish birth do want to have a relationship with Him and so do believe and enter the kingdom (positionally now, experientially on that day of resurrection). As this verse you ask about teaches, these contemporaries of Jesus who rejected God's message, God's Messenger, and God's purpose for themselves, however, will suffer the fate of all who spurn God from self-willed arrogance (in spite of God's sacrifice of His Son on their behalf): they will be cast into torments (i.e., eternal condemnation), which is described here by our Lord as a place of grief, pain and darkness.

http://www.ichthys.com/mail-sons%20of%20the%20kingdom.htm

 

[Marcia]

Matthew 8:11 is similar to the parable told by Jesus about the landowner and the vine growers in Matthew 21, where Jesus concludes:

43"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

The Jews by birth were the "sons of the Kingdom" having received the Law and the promises of God, but now in rejecting the Messiah, this would be given to the Gentiles. This is another picture of the rejection by the Jews (as a whole) of the Messiah and the gospel going to the Gentiles (of course, I do think the promises to Israel will be kept at the end of time).

 

[Amy.G]

If these two terms are speaking of different kingdoms, what is the purpose? Why is God telling us this?

As long as I am where the Lord is, I don't care what kingdom you call it. :tongue3:

 

[OldRegular]

Matthew 8:11 is similar to the parable told by Jesus about the landowner and the vine growers in Matthew 21, where Jesus concludes:

43"Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.e]

The Jews by birth were the "sons of the Kingdom" having received the Law and the promises of God, but now in rejecting the Messiah, this would be given to the Gentiles. This is another picture of the rejection by the Jews (as a whole) of the Messiah and the gospel going to the Gentiles (of course, I do think the promises to Israel will be kept at the end of time).

Where is the scripture that supports your assumption?

 

[olegig]

(of course, I do think the promises to Israel will be kept at the end of time).

I agree, God will never forsake Israel or the promises made to them.

Jeremiah 31 (King James Version)
35Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

As far as these old eyes can tell, the sun, moon, and stars are still in the heavens; therefore Israel is still a nation before God and has been replaced by nothing.

I have found it fascinating that while the Catholic church was busy trying to annihilate the Jew so the Cc could replace them as God's chosen people, the church was also persecuting those who were trying to measure the heavens.
But we see the Catholic church, as is true of many others, doesn't pay much attention to the Word of God.

 

[Marcia]

Where is the scripture that supports your assumption?

I will have to look later, but several parables were told to show that the Jews, the inheritors of the promises of God, would be cast out - in one case, the Jews even knew Jesus was referring to them and got mad. I'll look later. Right now, I'm going to eat fresh baked brownies made by my landlady's daughter.

Ok, I'm back. Look at the parable of the 2 sons in Matt. 21.

Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you that AB)" class="xref">(AB)the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you. 32"For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him; but AC)" class="xref">(AC)the tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him; and you, seeing this, did not even feel remorse afterward so as to believe him.

No time to remove the little marks.

And back to the parable of the two landowners in Matt. 21. At the end of the parable it says:
45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

 

[olegig]

If these two terms are speaking of different kingdoms, what is the purpose? Why is God telling us this?

As long as I am where the Lord is, I don't care what kingdom you call it. :tongue3:

See if this helps any:

[Kingdom of Heaven
Most immediately assume that this kingdom is the same as the Kingdom of God, but it isn't. Just as God and Heaven are not the same, the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are not the same. God is spiritual (Jhn 4:24), while Heaven is God's physical creation (Gen. 1:1). Hence the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom, while the kingdom of Heaven is a literal and physical kingdom. God gave Adam dominion over this kingdom in Genesis 1:28. It's an earthly kingdom, but it was God's will for it to be run "as it is in heaven" (Mat. 6:10). As the Old Testament continues, we find God appointing different men over this physical kingdom (Noah, Abraham, David, Solomon, etc). Evidently, the Kingdom of Heaven departed in Jeremiah chapter 22, when God swore than no descendant of Coniah would prosper sitting upon the throne of David. This ushered in the "times of the Gentiles" (Luk. 21:24) with the Babylonian captivity. Then came the kingdoms of the Medes and Persians, then the Greeks, then the Romans. According to Luke 4:6, Satan is in charge of these worldly kingdoms, and he gives them to whomever he wishes. II Corinthians 4:4 says that he is the "god of this world."
Then came GOD'S King, the Lord Jesus Christ, the King of the Jews, the Messiah. The Jews knew that God had promised them a kingdom (Gen. 49:10; Isa. 2:1-5; Isa. 49:5-13; Psa. 2; Jer. 23:5; Luk. 1:30-33, etc.). John the Baptist and Jesus both preached that the kingdom of heaven was at hand (Mat. 3:2; 4:17), but the Jews REJECTED their King and chose a GENTILE king instead (Jhn. 19:15). Therefore the kingdom was NOT restored to Israel. After the resurrection, the disciples asked Jesus if He was now going to restore the kingdom to Israel (a literal, physical, and visible kingdom--the Kingdom of Heaven), and He said, ". . . . It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power." (Acts 1:6-7) They were not asking Him to restore the SPIRITUAL Kingdom of God (Rom. 14:17), for they never had it to start with! They'd never been born again by the Spirit of God! They wanted THEIR kingdom back--the literal and physical Kingdom of Heaven.

Now, when Jesus returns the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven will actually become one, but let's not make the mistake of thinking that they're the same now. One is spiritual, while the other is physical.]
http://www.biblebelievers.com/jmelton/handbok.html#Kingdom of Heaven

 

[Amy.G]

See if this helps any:

Kingdom of Heaven....

Sorry. No that doesn't help.

We still have the same problem.

Mt*4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mr*1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Here we have Jesus saying both of these kingdoms are at hand.

 

[The Archangel]

This came up in another thread. Is there a difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God?

These verses seem to say they are the same.

Mt*19:23 ¶ Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt*19:24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

The phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" is used by Matthew some 31 times and it is unique to Matthew. (see here). The phrase "Kingdom of God" is used by Matthew only 5 times--the vast minority of his references.

On the other hand, the phrase "Kingdom of God" is used in the New Testament some 62 times outside of Matthew. (See here).

The two phrases are idioms and are synonymous. This can be easily demonstrated by Jesus' words about John the Baptist:

Matthew 11:11--Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luke 7:28--I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

This is one of many examples of passages in the gospel that parallel one another and these idioms are used interchangeably.

So, they are the same thing.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[OldRegular]

I will have to look later, but several parables were told to show that the Jews, the inheritors of the promises of God, would be cast out - in one case, the Jews even knew Jesus was referring to them and got mad. I'll look later. Right now, I'm going to eat fresh baked brownies made by my landlady's daughter.

Ok, I'm back. Look at the parable of the 2 sons in Matt. 21.

No time to remove the little marks.

And back to the parable of the two landowners in Matt. 21. At the end of the parable it says:
45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

That sure does not constitute a promise of restoration.

 

[OldRegular]

The phrase "Kingdom of Heaven" is used by Matthew some 31 times and it is unique to Matthew. (see here). The phrase "Kingdom of God" is used by Matthew only 5 times--the vast minority of his references.

On the other hand, the phrase "Kingdom of God" is used in the New Testament some 62 times outside of Matthew. (See here).

The two phrases are idioms and are synonymous. This can be easily demonstrated by Jesus' words about John the Baptist:

Matthew 11:11--Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Luke 7:28--I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

This is one of many examples of passages in the gospel that parallel one another and these idioms are used interchangeably.

So, they are the same thing.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Well said!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[MovieProducer]

Sorry. No that doesn't help.

We still have the same problem.

Mt*4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mr*1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Here we have Jesus saying both of these kingdoms are at hand.

At the time he said this, they both were! But the Jews rejected him as king, and so the kingdom of heaven failed to come at that time. The kingdom of God is now (it is within us), but the kingdom of heaven is delayed. It will come in the future, and the two will merge.

 

[olegig]

Sorry. No that doesn't help.

We still have the same problem.

Mt*4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mr*1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


Here we have Jesus saying both of these kingdoms are at hand.

They both were at hand at that time.

I have no doubt that had all Israel accepted Jesus as He came, then the physical kingdom of heaven would have come to earth (Mt 6:10) along with the spiritual kingdom of God.
But as things now stand we are certainly in the spiritual kingdom of God with the future physical kingdom of heaven yet fulfilled.

Just as the article I C&P'ed, the kingdom of God is spiritual because God is spirit.
But the kingdom of heaven is physical because heaven and earth were created by God. However, as yet, heaven has not come down to earth to establish a time when the lion will lay with the lamb, when swords will be beaten into plow-shears, or when the child will play with the asp.

But praise God it's coming and we, the body of Christ, will rule and reign with Christ over this glorious kingdom.

 

[webdog]

Well said!:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Wow...in complete agreement with both oldregular and the archangel