Do you believe the Church started at Pentecost?

[Jedi Knight]

Luke1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. His father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit too. Luke 11:13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him.

 

[psalms109:31]

Womb

If you had John the baptist in your womb, you would be filled with the Holy Spirit to.

 

[Jedi Knight]

If you had John the baptist in your womb, you would be filled with the Holy Spirit to.

Nice try.:laugh:

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

Luke 1:
34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[c] the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God."

38"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.

 

[Marcia]

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

which were BORN, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD. John first chapter

Yes, but the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not until after the Ascension.

John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit as a special case - he was the last OT prophet. To have the Holy Spirit indwell you upon belief was after the Ascension.

 

[Marcia]

Glad you see clearly to pull the mote out 4 me. The Holy Spirit will come UPON THEM WITH POWER. Jesus said the Spirit would come upon you AND be in you. If your theological ducks are in a row ....that's great! Here is a little read from John Piper on it.http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...vers_Experienced_the_Spirit_Before_Pentecost/

Piper is Reformed; I do not agree with Reformed theology. They have a diffferent view of the church, as far as I know, and unless you are Reformed Baptist, most Baptists do not have this view.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

John 7:39
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

Luke 24:49
I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

So with that He surely wasn't talking about those who have received the Holy Spirit that the scripture talks about, but the disciple's and believers who have not until He breathed on them and on the day of Pentecost

I don't care about being right or wrong, but that the scripture is the truth.

 

[psalms109:31]

Yes, but the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit was not until after the Ascension.

John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit as a special case - he was the last OT prophet. To have the Holy Spirit indwell you upon belief was after the Ascension.

Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.

I see what you are saying, it can't be a permanent thing if he was concerned about God taking the Holy Spirit from him as today when we are His we are His and He will not take the Holy Spirit from us

 

[Jedi Knight]

John the Baptist had the Holy Spirit as a special case - he was the last OT prophet. To have the Holy Spirit indwell you upon belief was after the Ascension.

So you don't see where others had the Holy Spirit too? I posted a few above.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Piper is Reformed; I do not agree with Reformed theology. They have a diffferent view of the church, as far as I know, and unless you are Reformed Baptist, most Baptists do not have this view.

Well I am a Christian first and foremost. But if I gotta have a label other than believe the scriptures.....so be it.

 

[olegig]

It seems in this thread the requirement for membership in the Body of Christ, the Church has become by default being indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

But looking back over the posts, I see no scriptural evidence of this presented and feel that before it is accepted as the requirement, it should be supported with scripture.

Paul, who first revealed the mystery of the Body of Christ indicated he was the first member of the Body.
Paul referred to himself as the pattern for those who should hereafter believe.

1 Timothy 1:15-16 (King James Version)

15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

A pattern could be what the dressmaker uses, or it could be a blueprint for a building; but I think we would agree the pattern comes first.

Paul also refers to himself as the masterbuilder, the general contractor so-to-speak.

1 Corinthians 3:10 (King James Version)

10According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

When Peter asked Jesus what they should have in the future kingdom, the only one known by the twelve, the one prophesied in the OT, Jesus answered:

Matthew 19:28 (King James Version)

28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

IMO the above rules out the 12 as being in the Body because they are going to set in judgment of the twelve tribes of Israel in the prophesied future kingdom of Heaven of earth.
Certainly one would agree the 12 were saved for they had heard and believed the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23; 9:35; 24:14) preached from Jesus Himself.
But was this the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection as we today are instructed to believe?
I think Not, for how could the gospel found in 1Cor 15 be preached to the 12 before the cross?

Perhaps the requirement for member of the Body of Christ has more to do with what one believed than what happened to one after they believed.

The Body is spoken of as being the Bride of Christ, ruling and reigning with Him not setting in judgment of the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[psalms109:31]

Church

I don't think any one thinks the church is the default. We believe Jesus body is the church and those who are in Him is apart of the body.

1 Corinthians 12:12
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

Ephesians 2:19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

 

[Steven2006]

.

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of death will not overcome it. -Matt. 16:18

This is the verse I thought of also.

 

[olegig]

I don't think any one thinks the church is the default. We believe Jesus body is the church and those who are in Him is apart of the body.

I see from your statement that I did not do well with my punctuation. sorry.....

When I said: "It seems in this thread the requirement for membership in the Body of Christ, the Church has become by default being indwelt by the Holy Spirit."
I should have placed a comma after "Church" thus showing the term "Church" was being used in conjunction with "Body of Christ" as the same entity.

I did not mean "the Church has become....." I meant in this thread the requirement for membership....has become.....".

My point was to raise the question of the scriptural evidence for placing one in the Body on the basis of them being indwelt by the Holy Spirit when Paul seems to place the requirement on the basis of what one believes.

 

[Marcia]

So you don't see where others had the Holy Spirit too? I posted a few above.

I never said that people did not have the Holy Spirit in the OT. I have only stated that the being permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon faith was not until the Ascension of Jesus.

These are 2 passages on this that I posted. There are others.

38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7


"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you." John 16:7

Some of the OT people had the Spirit taken away from them - this is not permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Tom Butler]

I usually agree with you, Tom, but not here. The Twelve did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at this time, which I think is one of the marks of the Church, in the sense that it is the church of Jesus Christ.

After all, look at how they scattered when Jesus was arrested and how Peter denied Jesus. But look at how they persisted, preached, and endured imprisonment and even death once they had the indwelling Holy Spirit.

I do not think the church of Jesus exists without its members (believers) indwelt by the Holy Spirit, which is also why I do not think the assembly in the OT was the church.

Marcia, you and I are approaching this question from different directions, so as long as we make our cases from those different perspectives, we'll likely talk past each other without success.

With regard to the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, you see it as indwelling, I see it as empowering. I do agree that the HS indwells all believers, but don't see this as critical to the definition of the beginning of the church.

I contend that the church Jesus established during his earthly ministry had everything the churches of today have. It had a Head, it had an organization, it had a commission (see Mark 3), had a message, the disciples were ordained, they baptized, and it had the Lord's Supper. They had power over demons, they could heal the sick. And they had instructions regarding discipline in the congregation.

The source of their power was Jesus himself. When he was about to leave them, he told them to wait, and they would receive power again. It came, at Pentecost. The band of 120 huddled in an upper room suddenly became bold and fearless, even to death.

The other point is that the Twelve, the material of the first church, assembled. Churches assemble. The church at Jerusalem was empowered while it assembled. It assembled constantly for the study of the Word of God and for fellowship and worship.

The Great Commission was given to the eleven, while they were assembled, a church, if you will. The same commission is meant for each succeeding church that followed.

I also hold that the concept of the Universal Church, made up of all believers, is a fantasy. The New Testament knows nothing of any other kind but the local congregation, except when it speaks in a generic or institutional sense, in the same way we speak of the family.

So, I suppose we are both being consistent, given our pre-suppositions. The fact that they are different will make it difficult for us to see things the same way.

 

[J.D.]

Does the Olive Tree in Romans 11 represent the Church? If so, when did the Olive Tree start?

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, you and I are approaching this question from different directions, so as long as we make our cases from those different perspectives, we'll likely talk past each other without success.

With regard to the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, you see it as indwelling, I see it as empowering. I do agree that the HS indwells all believers, but don't see this as critical to the definition of the beginning of the church.

I contend that the church Jesus established during his earthly ministry had everything the churches of today have. It had a Head, it had an organization, it had a commission (see Mark 3), had a message, the disciples were ordained, they baptized, and it had the Lord's Supper. They had power over demons, they could heal the sick. And they had instructions regarding discipline in the congregation.

The source of their power was Jesus himself. When he was about to leave them, he told them to wait, and they would receive power again.

Hi, Tom! But Jesus didn't say "again" or imply it. They did not act much like an empowered church by fleeing when Jesus was arrested nor by denying Jesus (Peter).

The other point is that the Twelve, the material of the first church, assembled. Churches assemble. The church at Jerusalem was empowered while it assembled. It assembled constantly for the study of the Word of God and for fellowship and worship.

The Great Commission was given to the eleven, while they were assembled, a church, if you will. The same commission is meant for each succeeding church that followed.

I also hold that the concept of the Universal Church, made up of all believers, is a fantasy. The New Testament knows nothing of any other kind but the local congregation, except when it speaks in a generic or institutional sense, in the same way we speak of the family.

I think the church is both invisible - all believers in Christ are his body - and visible in the local church and how it teaches the word, equips believers, and sends out those to evangelize.

What about these verses I posted:

38"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. John 7


"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you." John 16:7

 

[Marcia]

I tend to agree with this:

The key passage on Spirit baptism is found in 1 Corinthians 12:13—“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.” The “one body” spoken of in this verse refers to the Church (see 1 Cor. 12:27-28; Eph. 1:22-23; 5:30-32; Col. 1:18), and Christ is the Head of this body. Spirit baptism is defined in 1 Corinthians 12:13 as that work of God whereby believers are baptized (immersed, placed) into Christ’s body, the Church. How then does a believer become a member of the body of Christ? It is by Spirit baptism.

The key to when the Church began is this: If we can determine when Spirit baptism first began, then we will know when the church began. When did God first baptize believers into His body? When were believers first placed into the body of Christ? To answer this is to determine the day on which the church began. <MORE>

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispen/begin.htm

You have to read the whole article to see their argument.

I realize there are other views and I appreciate your comments. (However, I can not go along with the view that the church began in the OT).

I'll soon be taking Ecclesiology at seminary and will find out then! :laugh:


. . ..

 

[J.D.]

If Old Testament saints were saved by grace through faith in Christ (I assume general agreement on this), how were they then not members of the body of Christ? What "body" are they members of?