Why are you a Calvinist?

[Jarthur001]

There are some that believe that Calvinist has never really studied the Bible. They believe Calvinist have only read a book or two on Calvinist doctrine, and have yet to see if it is backup with scripture. While I have yet to meet such a Calvinist, I would like to know if maybe they do exist as some think.

So I would like to ask a few questions to other Calvinist, and see if this is the case.

a) When you were 1st aware of the doctrines of grace, did you immediately embrace them or fight them?

A1) If you fought against them, whither it be a personal battle or a outward battle, how long of a time frame before you came to embrace them?

A2) Did you look to scripture as you fought the matter, or only to John Calvin?

A3) Did you pray to our Lord over the matter, just wanting to know the truth?
​

b) When you read a book by RC Sproul, John Edwards, John Piper, and other Calvinist, do you believe it only because they being Calvinist have said it?
​

B1) Do you ever disagree with one of these men?

B2) If you agree or disagree with the writers, what is the determining factor…

1) They are Calvinist therefore I believe them.
2) They told a good story.
3) I checked the Bible and found what they said was the message of Scripture.
​

c) Is there ever a time when you may question Calvinism?
​

d) Have you ever read Arminian based books like “Beyond Calvinism and Arminiainism..By: C. Gordon Olson…or…What love is this/” by: Dave Hunt?..The works of Desiderius Erasmus…and the like?
​

D1) If so, did you check their work with Scripture?

D1a) If you checked, what did you find?
​

e) In one short line, why are you a Calvinist?
​

f) If you are a Calvinist pastor, do you preach on election every week?
​

g) Have you ever been with another person that has struggled with the issue, when the “light came on” leading to their embracement of the doctrines?
​

G1) If so, how would you describe that moment?

a) Stunned
b) Over-whelmed
c) Crying..very emotional
d) Not able to sleep at night..(just before or just after)
e) All of the above and more
f) Nothing happened
g) other

​

h) Could you relate to the persons feelings that just embraced the doctrines?
​

 

[canadyjd]

...So I would like to ask a few questions to other Calvinist....

I was saved relatively late compared to others (32 yrs. old). I began to study the bible on my own and came to understand and believe various doctrines that I later learned was called "calvinism" or "reformed".

These included the doctrines of God's sovereignty, especially in the area of salvation... election, predestination and so forth., and man's inability and the enslavement of man's "will" to sin/satan/world.

I haven't studied Calvin, though I have read quotes from some of his works by those who agree and disagree. I have read some authors who are "calvinistic".

I base what I believe on scripture. I have found, in general, that those who favor reformed theology stay very close to the meaning of God's Word in the context they were written... and attempt to harmonize passages rather than ignore them.

peace to youraying:

 

[Jarthur001]

a) When you were 1st aware of the doctrines of grace, did you immediately embrace them or fight them?

The atonement I fought. The other doctrines I pretty most came across on my own through Bible study.

A1) If you fought against them, whither it be a personal battle or a outward battle, how long of a time frame before you came to embrace them?

The atonement, over 2 years.

A2) Did you look to scripture as you fought the matter, or only to John Calvin?

At the time I had never read Calvin. What the Bible says is all that matters in the end.

A3) Did you pray to our Lord over the matter, just wanting to know the truth?

For hours each day, I prayed on this matter. I knew what the Bible said, but I was unwilling to give up my "will". I lay in the floor of my office, many mornings as i held on to my feelings and rejec ted what I had read in the Bible.
​

b) When you read a book by RC Sproul, John Edwards, John Piper, and other Calvinist, do you believe it only because they being Calvinist have said it?

No
​

B1) Do you ever disagree with one of these men?

Yes

B2) If you agree or disagree with the writers, what is the determining factor…

1) They are Calvinist therefore I believe them.
2) They told a good story.
3) I checked the Bible and found what they said was the message of Scripture.​

Scripture.
​

c) Is there ever a time when you may question Calvinism?

Yes. I often ask..."Am I teaching the truth?". After all, I am told I must teach the truth. Therefore when I come to a passage that calls for me to address a subject that all do not see the same, I must not hide from it, and I must teach in a prayerful way.
​

d) Have you ever read Arminian based books like “Beyond Calvinism and Arminiainism..By: C. Gordon Olson…or…What love is this/” by: Dave Hunt?..The works of Desiderius Erasmus…and the like?

I have. I own these books and more like them.
​

D1) If so, did you check their work with Scripture?

I found their arguments based on emotion. This is the main case found in Hunts book. Olson makes better arguments in his book, but none of his footnotes match what he claims.

D1a) If you checked, what did you find?

None of the books I have read have given a good argument based on Scripture.
​

e) In one short line, why are you a Calvinist?

Because of all the system I have study, it holds to Scripture more than any other.
​

f) If you are a Calvinist pastor, do you preach on election every week?

I am a pastor, and no I do not pearch on election each week. But just as the reformers, now that i hold to the doctrines, I find those doctrines on every page of scripture. Places I have read many times and never seen them, now they pop out. It will change your world.
​

g) Have you ever been with another person that has struggled with the issue, when the “light came on” leading to their embracement of the doctrines?

Yes many. God has allowed me to teach others in my area. I live where 10 years ago, every Calvinist knew each other. Just a few weeks ago we had over 300 pack a church with a well known Calvinist peacher. We now have a good number of Calvinism teaching churches. Many of these preachers God has allowed me to work with them.
​

G1) If so, how would you describe that moment?

a) Stunned
b) Over-whelmed
c) Crying..very emotional
d) Not able to sleep at night..(just before or just after)
e) All of the above and more
f) Nothing happened
g) other​

E...all of the above and more. The truths do not come easy. It takes great soul searching. It will turn your life upsdie down and in most cases, it goes against everything you ever believed. Many have called it...like being born again for the 2nd time. I'm not saying its salvation...but I have heard it worded this way by more than one Calvinist.
​

h) Could you relate to the persons feelings that just embraced the doctrines?

Been there. Yes
​

[/QUOTE]


Peace..james

 

[Skandelon]

There are some that believe that Calvinist has never really studied the Bible. They believe Calvinist have only read a book or two on Calvinist doctrine, and have yet to see if it is backup with scripture. While I have yet to meet such a Calvinist, I would like to know if maybe they do exist as some think.

I don't believe that. In today's world the Calvinists are typically more educated and well read. Most non-Calvinists, in my experience, have no idea why they aren't a Calvinists...except that it doesn't seem to jive with John 3:16. It's this ignorance that I believe has lead to this "neo-Calvinistic" resurgence. There are few answering the tough questions about passages like Romans 9 and Eph 1 except people like Piper, MacArthur, Sproul, JI Packer, Louie Gigolo and the like.

Calvinists study their bible and are typically much more versed than the typical non-Calvinist, thus MANY of these new Calvinists have little grasp on the "scholarly" responses to their arguments. Few take the time to really explore the other side of the debate. They are content talking to their local 31 year old youth minister who continually quotes John 3:16 while emphasizing the word "WHOSOEVER" over and over, as if that should end the debate. No wonder they love Piper so much.

I'll answer these questions as I would have when I was a Calvinist:

So I would like to ask a few questions to other Calvinist, and see if this is the case.

a) When you were 1st aware of the doctrines of grace, did you immediately embrace them or fight them?

A1) If you fought against them, whither it be a personal battle or a outward battle, how long of a time frame before you came to embrace them?

A2) Did you look to scripture as you fought the matter, or only to John Calvin?

A3) Did you pray to our Lord over the matter, just wanting to know the truth?​

A1: Fought against them for several months
A2: Scripture and books from men like MacArthur, Sproul and the like
A3: Yes I prayed and still do

​

b) When you read a book by RC Sproul, John Edwards, John Piper, and other Calvinist, do you believe it only because they being Calvinist have said it?
​

B1) Do you ever disagree with one of these men?

B2) If you agree or disagree with the writers, what is the determining factor…

1) They are Calvinist therefore I believe them. 2) They told a good story.
3) I checked the Bible and found what they said was the message of Scripture.​

B: No, I believe it because I thought they best represented the intent of the authors scripture.
B1: Yes, I disagreed with them sometimes. Sproul believed differently than MacArthur on several matters for example.
B2: 3:Scripture
​

c) Is there ever a time when you may question Calvinism?​

Obviously, yes.

​

d) Have you ever read Arminian based books like “Beyond Calvinism and Arminiainism..By: C. Gordon Olson…or…What love is this/” by: Dave Hunt?..The works of Desiderius Erasmus…and the like?​

Yes, but typically with the desire to disprove or belittle the authors, not learn from them. (btw, dave hunts stuff is not all that great)
​

D1) If so, did you check their work with Scripture?

D1a) If you checked, what did you find?​

D1: Sure
D2: That I was smarter than they were most of the time.

​

e) In one short line, why are you a Calvinist?​

Because I believe(d) that is what Scripture taught.

​

f) If you are a Calvinist pastor, do you preach on election every week?​

Of course not.

​

g) Have you ever been with another person that has struggled with the issue, when the “light came on” leading to their embracement of the doctrines?​

Countless times. (unfortunately)

​

G1) If so, how would you describe that moment?

a) Stunned
b) Over-whelmed
c) Crying..very emotional
d) Not able to sleep at night..(just before or just after)
e) All of the above and more
f) Nothing happened
g) other​

E, but each time was different depending on the circumstances.

​

h) Could you relate to the persons feelings that just embraced the doctrines?

Yes. It was humbling to think God might have chosen to save me. It is a very moving experience. (but so is being filled with the Holy Ghost at a "second baptism," but it doesn't necessarily mean its "of God.")

 

[OldRegular]

I am not a Calvinist. Calvin held certain beliefs that I think are not supported by Scripture. However, I do believe in the Sovereign Doctrines of Grace. I believe these are summarized well in the Covenant of Grace.

This Covenant, an eternal covenant, is best understood as a covenant in which the three Divine Persons in the Godhead co-operate in man’s salvation [Psalms 2:8; 40: 6-8; 59:3; Isaiah 49: 3-12; John 17:6; Hebrews 13:20; Titus 1:2] and is summarized as follows:

1. God the Father foreknew and chose a people to be His own before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4].

2. God the Son agrees to humble Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, and die on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation so that none are lost [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].

3. God the Holy Spirit agrees to apply the work of the Son to those chosen by God the Father and who regenerates and effectually calls those whom God the Father has chosen unto salvation [John 6: 37, 44; Ephesians 2:1-10].

We must not think that this Covenant of Grace was preceded by a proposal of terms by one person of the Triune Godhead followed by deliberation prior to acceptance or rejection of the proposal by the other persons of the Triune Godhead. God is One and the nature of the Godhead is such that perfect harmony, in fact, unity of thought must exist within the Triune Godhead.

Holy Scripture is the story of the outworking of the Covenant of Grace in time and history. Though there is one Covenant of Grace [and many subsidiary covenants] there have been two primary administrations of the Covenant, one before the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and one after His death and resurrection. The first administration as recorded in the Old Testament dealt in types and shadows of things to come [Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 8:5 and 10:1]; the second administration, as recorded in the New Testament, presents the spiritual reality of that which was promised. This second administration was instituted by the death of Jesus Christ [Hebrews 7:14-28] and is the fulfillment of the Old Testament promise of a New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-13]. The elect of God have, since the fall of Adam, received the blessings of the Covenant solely through the Grace of God.

===============================================

The Covenant of Grace as described Charles H. Spurgeon [page 18, Dispensationalism and Covenant Theology by Richard Belcher].

Few are as eloquent as Charles H. Spurgeon, the great English Baptist preacher of the 19th century, as he pictures what took place in eternity past in the agreements of this covenant.

Spurgeon writes as follows concerning the Father's part:

1.“I the Most High Jehovah, do hereby give unto my only begotten and well-beloved Son, a people countless beyond the number of the stars who shall be by Him washed from sin, by Him preserved, and kept, and led, and by Him, at last, presented before my throne, without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing. I covenant by oath and sware by myself, because I can sware by no greater, that those whom I now give to Christ shall be forever the objects of my eternal love. Them will I forgive through the merit of the blood, to these will I give a perfect righteousness; these will I adopt and make my sons and daughters and these shall reign with me through Christ eternally.


Spurgeon continues as follows as he speaks of the part of the Son in the covenant of grace:

2. “My Father, on my part I covenant that in the fullness of time I will become man. I will take upon myself the form and nature of the fallen race. I will live in their wretched world, and for my people I will keep the law perfectly. I will work out a spotless righteousness, which shall be acceptable to the demands of Thy just and holy law. In due time I will bear the sins of all my people. Thou shalt exact their debts on me; the chastisement of their peace will I endure, and by my stripes they shall be healed. My Father, I covenant and promise that I will be obedient unto death, even the death of the Cross. I will magnify Thy law, and make it honorable. I will suffer all they ought to have suffered. I will endure the curse of Thy law, and all the vials of Thy wrath shall be emptied and spent upon my head. I will then rise again; I will ascend into heaven; I will intercede for them at Thy right hand; I will make myself responsible for every one of them, that not one of those whom Thou hast given me shall ever be lost, and I will bring all my sheep of whom, by Thy blood, Thou has constituted me the Shepherd - I will bring every one safe to Thee at last.”


Concerning the Holy Spirit's part in the covenant, Spurgeon writes:

3. “I hereby covenant that all whom the Father giveth to the Son, I will in due time quicken. I will show them their need of redemption; I will cut off from them all groundless hope, and destroy their refuges of lies. I will bring them to the blood of sprinkling; I will give them faith whereby this blood can be applied to them; I will work in them every grace; I will keep their faith alive; I will cleanse them and drive out all depravity from them, and they shall be presented at last spotless and faultless.”

Belcher note: “One must understand that this was Spurgeon's view of the covenant. No covenant theologian would claim any authority for his words, but would only refer to his thoughts to picture what the Covenant of Grace might have said in light of what it is felt Scripture teaches.”

 

[Amy.G]

Why would you fight it? If it's true and you prayed for the truth, why didn't you embrace it immediately?

 

[Skandelon]

Why would you fight it? If it's true and you prayed for the truth, why didn't you embrace it immediately?

Amy, the claims of Calvinism are difficult to swallow. If you grow up being taught God loves all people and genuinely desires for all to be saved through faith then the Calvinistic dogma is quite a shock. When you find out God loves some more than others, that he only really desires for his elect to be saved and that all other men are condemned from birth without any hope of salvation it will cause you to fight it.

I explain this here: http://critiquingcalvinism.blogspot.com/2010/02/repulsion-to-calvinism.html

 

[Jarthur001]

Why would you fight it? If it's true and you prayed for the truth, why didn't you embrace it immediately?

The same old problem that was found in the garden. The human will. I want to be in control, but I'm not.

 

[Amy.G]

The same old problem that was found in the garden. The human will. I want to be in control, but I'm not.

If you were talking about an unbeliever wanting to be in control, I would agree with your point. But we are talking about believers. It doesn't make sense for a believer to claim to have a resistance to the truth and to fight it.

 

[Jarthur001]

If you were talking about an unbeliever wanting to be in control, I would agree with your point. But we are talking about believers. It doesn't make sense for a believer to claim to have a resistance to the truth and to fight it.

And yet it happens all the time. You feel you know the truth, have been under sound teaching and then when you hear the real truth for the 1st time...and it does not sound like what you think is ture...at 1st you reject it.


Maybe not you. But most do. They have to study it on their own and make sure.

 

[Amy.G]

And yet it happens all the time. You feel you know the truth, have been under sound teaching and then when you hear the real truth for the 1st time...and it does not sound like what you think is ture...at 1st you reject it.


Maybe not you. But most do. They have to study it on their own and make sure.

No, not me. And I'll tell you why (I think ). I wasn't raised in a Christian home, which was a great disadvantage and something I would not wish on anyone. I have grieved at times about my lack of knowledge of God growing up. But, like Joseph, the devil meant it for bad, but God used it for good. Because I knew nothing, I was a clean slate for God to work with. But shortly after I was saved, I got involved with the "wrong" doctrines. It was in innocence, but it did me damage. This experience caused me to have a passion for the truth. So, I do not reject something simply because it's "different". I first seek God and then dive into His word and rely totally on Him to lead me to the truth.
Now you're probably going to ask me why then am I not a Calvinist? :laugh:
And the answer is that God showed me otherwise. I have no agenda and it doesn't matter to me if God is a Calvinist or an Arminian. All I care about is the truth and that is the position that I approach scripture from. In other words, I have absolutely no reason to disbelieve Calvinism. I simply don't see it in scripture. If I do, I have no problem admitting I was wrong.

 

[MrJim]

There are some that believe that Calvinist has never really studied the Bible. They believe Calvinist have only read a book or two on Calvinist doctrine, and have yet to see if it is backup with scripture. While I have yet to meet such a Calvinist, I would like to know if maybe they do exist as some think.

I'm going to answer as a former Calvinist (with absolutely no arguments against the position) since it was a very pivotal time in my journey.

So I would like to ask a few questions to other Calvinist, and see if this is the case.

a) When you were 1st aware of the doctrines of grace, did you immediately embrace them or fight them?

A1) If you fought against them, whither it be a personal battle or a outward battle, how long of a time frame before you came to embrace them?​

I fought against them because it was something fairly new to me and it sounded ridiculous at the time. It was a process of about a year before I started accepting it as truth.

A2) Did you look to scripture as you fought the matter, or only to John Calvin?

Scripture was the basis~Sproul, Horton & the White Horse Inn & Modern Reformation were simply the teachers.

A3) Did you pray to our Lord over the matter, just wanting to know the truth?

Prayed a lot, perhaps more then than now..
​

b) When you read a book by RC Sproul, John Edwards, John Piper, and other Calvinist, do you believe it only because they being Calvinist have said it?​

Nah, I've always been somewhat suspicious and critical of anything other than Scripture anyhow so no gets a free ride:laugh:
​

B1) Do you ever disagree with one of these men?
​

Sure~I was more the Reformed Baptist end of the spectrum so the padeobaptist stuff was always a block, though they could make a good case for it.

B2) If you agree or disagree with the writers, what is the determining factor…

1) They are Calvinist therefore I believe them.
2) They told a good story.
3) I checked the Bible and found what they said was the message of Scripture.​

Scripture was always the basis~all the reformed baptist folks & calvinist folks I met were too. I didn't find "Mindless Minions" among them. Generally well educated, often professional folks.
​

c) Is there ever a time when you may question Calvinism?​

I did eventual move away from it some extent.

d) Have you ever read Arminian based books like “Beyond Calvinism and Arminiainism..By: C. Gordon Olson…or…What love is this/” by: Dave Hunt?..The works of Desiderius Erasmus…and the like?

Mine was more along mennonite/anabaptist end of the spectrum~didn't read Hunt or the other fellows.

D1) If so, did you check their work with Scripture? D1a) If you checked, what did you find?

I found that they also had excellent arguments

Best wishes on your research:wavey:​

 

[OldRegular]

They have to study it on their own and make sure.

I agree!

I doubt that anyone could have convinced me of the Doctrines of Sovereign Grace [what is commonly called Calvinism]. After GOD by HIS Grace saved me I studied the Bible and inevitably came to the conclusion that Salvation is entirely by through the choice and Grace of GOD.

Furthermore, as I came to understand myself in light of the Scripture teaching of the infinite Holiness and Righteousness of GOD I was more than ever convinced that unless GOD had chosen me to Salvation I would be eternally lost.

 

[psalms109:31]

Love Of God

Most of my known life I loved God. It was awesome to know that the God of the universe loved the world. I didn't understand back then "that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not not perish but have eternal life" meant, but I did understand that God loved me. It wasn't until I was eleven that God introduced me to Jesus Christ and I understood.

I gave my life to Him.

It wasn't until I was 26 that I started talking to people online about my faith.

I ran across this universalism/Calvinist. I debated him every day 6-8 hours a day.

No matter what his ultimate conclusion was God is going to pick who will be saved and God want all men to be saved. So even through the fires of hell men will come to Jesus.

I realized this one thing that no matter what you say when men have a man-made doctrinal veil on they will only see scripture through that veil

 

[J.D.]

There are some that believe that Calvinist has never really studied the Bible. They believe Calvinist have only read a book or two on Calvinist doctrine, and have yet to see if it is backup with scripture. While I have yet to meet such a Calvinist, I would like to know if maybe they do exist as some think.

So I would like to ask a few questions to other Calvinist, and see if this is the case.

a) When you were 1st aware of the doctrines of grace, did you immediately embrace them or fight them? fought them

A1) If you fought against them, whither it be a personal battle or a outward battle, how long of a time frame before you came to embrace them? many years

A2) Did you look to scripture as you fought the matter, or only to John Calvin? scripture, scripture, scripture. Never read anything by John Calvin until recently.

A3) Did you pray to our Lord over the matter, just wanting to know the truth? prayed, prayed, prayed!
​

b) When you read a book by RC Sproul, John Edwards, John Piper, and other Calvinist, do you believe it only because they being Calvinist have said it? I thought Sproul was a heretic, Edwards was a Finneyite, never heard of Piper at the time.
​

B1) Do you ever disagree with one of these men? All of them, on one thing or another.

B2) If you agree or disagree with the writers, what is the determining factor…

1) They are Calvinist therefore I believe them.
2) They told a good story.
3) I checked the Bible and found what they said was the message of Scripture.
​

c) Is there ever a time when you may question Calvinism? Always. If it does not stand to critical review, it does not stand as truth.
​

d) Have you ever read Arminian based books like “Beyond Calvinism and Arminiainism..By: C. Gordon Olson…or…What love is this/” by: Dave Hunt?..The works of Desiderius Erasmus…and the like? I used to feast on J R Rice, Hyles, SOTL, etc.
​

D1) If so, did you check their work with Scripture?

D1a) If you checked, what did you find? I used to think that as long as they had a proof text tagged on to their words, the matter was settled. But then I began to see the gaps in their method when I tried to put all the texts together in a cohesive fashion.
​

e) In one short line, why are you a Calvinist? As Packer said, "it is the Gospel", and, "God saves sinners".
​

f) If you are a Calvinist pastor, do you preach on election every week? Currently not pastoring, but my teaching was focused solely on election and predestination for quite some time. Over it now, thank the Lord.
​

g) Have you ever been with another person that has struggled with the issue, when the “light came on” leading to their embracement of the doctrines?
​

G1) If so, how would you describe that moment?

a) Stunned
b) Over-whelmed
c) Crying..very emotional
d) Not able to sleep at night..(just before or just after)
e) All of the above and more
f) Nothing happened
g) other a and b, my own case was all of the above.

​

h) Could you relate to the persons feelings that just embraced the doctrines? Seeing a new world for the first time, the light coming on!
​

-----------------------------

 

[psalms109:31]

Calvinist

Here is s the elect and I agree with that.

Revelation 7
144,000 Sealed
1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

Through their message that Jesus Christ sent them out with, not the message that some will not be chosen. They will only say that to those who refuse to come to Jesus and be saved. That they disowned Jesus so Jesus disowned them. Not a peter denial, but a disowning. This is the fruit.

Revelation 7:

The Great Multitude in White Robes
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"

13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14I answered, "Sir, you know."

And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

These are the ones who were included because they heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed. I believe in the elect, but also know that God included to save whosoever believes.

I want to continue the message of Paul that God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Paul wasn't lying to you and I am not either. Here is that knowledge.

1 Corinthians 15
The Resurrection of Christ
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[Or you at the first]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[Greek Cephas] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

If they do not come to the knowledge of the truth they will not be saved.

 

[Martin]

a) When you were 1st aware of the doctrines of grace, did you immediately embrace them or fight them?

I don't recall the first time I heard of Calvinism. Therefore I can't tell you what my original reaction was.​

A2) Did you look to scripture as you fought the matter, or only to John Calvin?

Even though I consider myself a 4 and 1/2 point Calvinist, I have never seriously read or studied anything John Calvin wrote. The only Calvin work I have read was his commentary on Genesis and I only read that because I had to. My journey to Calvinism is rooted in my study of John 6 and Romans 8-11.​

A3) Did you pray to our Lord over the matter, just wanting to know the truth?

Yes and believe me that is a prayer you don't want to pray unless you are serious about it. I recall when I was struggling with the issue of free grace vs. Lordship salvation. I got up from my reading and walked into the woods to think, pray, and talk to myself (as I often did and would still do if I still lived in that house). God met me in those woods and it all came rushing together. I can't say that everything was easy after that point. But I can say that I could not go back. In a way, I guess that was my first step towards Calvinism.​

b) When you read a book by RC Sproul, John Edwards, John Piper, and other Calvinist, do you believe it only because they being Calvinist have said it?

The only book I read and believe because someone said it is the Bible. And that is because God said it and therefore I believe it. Outside of Scripture, I believe in questioning everything. If I think an argument is weak I will say so (regardless of the author).​

B1) Do you ever disagree with one of these men?

Yes.​

B2) If you agree or disagree with the writers, what is the determining factor…1) They are Calvinist therefore I believe them. 2) They told a good story. 3) I checked the Bible and found what they said was the message of Scripture.

#3.​

c) Is there ever a time when you may question Calvinism?

Yes. I'm always studying, praying, and thinking about these type issues. However, in the case of Calvinism, the more I study, pray, and think the stronger it gets.​

d) Have you ever read Arminian based books like “Beyond Calvinism and Arminiainism..By: C. Gordon Olson…or…What love is this/” by: Dave Hunt?..The works of Desiderius Erasmus…and the like?

I've never read any of those books and, to be honest, I will not waste my time/money reading anything by Dave Hunt. I put him right in there with Jack Van Impe and Gail Riplinger. I do read books by non-Calvinists all the time (Robert Shank, etc). Their arguments only confirm my understanding of Scripture.​

D1) If so, did you check their work with Scripture?

I check all theological claims by Scripture.​

e) In one short line, why are you a Calvinist?

Because I believe it is the Biblical position.​

g) Have you ever been with another person that has struggled with the issue, when the “light came on” leading to their embracement of the doctrines? G1) If so, how would you describe that moment?

No, but I would love to. Most of my friends are very much non-Calvinist. My church, and my pastor, are non-Calvinists. Then again, off of these boards, it is not an issue I spend a great deal of time debating. I spend most of my time talking about the dangers of easy believism. The Sunday School class I teach hears that on a regular basis (and they agree). Btw, I don't teach Calvinism in SS. I am not the pastor and it is not my job to try and undermine his ministry. Besides, he has a spy in the class and if I ever did teach Calvinism he would probably have a chat with me after church :laugh:.​

 

[Havensdad]

I realized this one thing that no matter what you say when men have a man-made doctrinal veil on they will only see scripture through that veil

So take off your man made doctrinal veil, so you can see the truth.

Honestly, anyone that thinks that their view is the unbiased one, is naive at best. You bring just as many pre understandings and biases to the text as everyone else.

FYI: I was an "Arminian" for 9 years, and when I first encountered Calvinism, I used to attack it and mock it at every possible opportunity (although I really knew nothing about it). Of course, I never really studied my Bible at the time...

It was six months after my conversion to the Doctrines of Grace, before I read (or listened to) my first Calvinist author/speaker. I had already arrived at my conclusions solely by scripture, as much as this is possible for anyone, with little to no knowledge of Calvinism whatsoever. Amazingly, what I had uncovered in my scriptural journey, ,matched up almost perfectly with what Calvinist authors had wrote (unbeknown to me).

 

[Tom Bryant]

No, but I would love to. Most of my friends are very much non-Calvinist. My church, and my pastor, are non-Calvinists. Then again, off of these boards, it is not an issue I spend a great deal of time debating. I spend most of my time talking about the dangers of easy believism. The Sunday School class I teach hears that on a regular basis (and they agree). Btw, I don't teach Calvinism in SS. I am not the pastor and it is not my job to try and undermine his ministry. Besides, he has a spy in the class and if I ever did teach Calvinism he would probably have a chat with me after church :laugh:.​

As a pastor I want to say that this is how everyone who differs with the pastor ought to approach those differences. Both the way you approach it and the way your pastor lets you teach even though you differ about something that has caused other churches to split.

I have a couple of calvinists in our church. When we did a series on doctrine, i knew we had to talk about the issue So I spoke with our "resident" calvinists about how I would word their position. I didn't want my own position to denigrate their positions even though we disagree.

From this pastor, thanks for your godly responses.​

 

[Havensdad]

As a pastor I want to say that this is how everyone who differs with the pastor ought to approach those differences. Both the way you approach it and the way your pastor lets you teach even though you differ about something that has caused other churches to split.

I have a couple of calvinists in our church. When we did a series on doctrine, i knew we had to talk about the issue So I spoke with our "resident" calvinists about how I would word their position. I didn't want my own position to denigrate their positions even though we disagree.

From this pastor, thanks for your godly responses.​

The bad thing is when the pastor, youth pastor, and most of the SS teachers agree, but a few of te congregation from the "unsilent minority" cause the stir..

I get hammered for my beliefs, even though the senior pastor is more "calvinist" than I am. I guess he just carries it better. :laugh: