Jarthur001
Active Member
Well, then you must have only read scripture presented to you by Calvinists, there are volumes of scripture that contradict Calvinism. I have presented dozens of verses myself here in the last several months.
Let me repeat what I said....
There are no contradictions. NONE Becaue you don't understand does not mean there is contradictions.
It is not a paradox....there are two truths, One of which you are not able to get you head around, therefore you deny the power of God. That is a shame.
Jesus died for 100% of mankind, even those who do not accept his offer of salvation. I will show you that.
READERS PLEASE TAKE NOTE:
As is the case with most questions posed to this member, he never addresses them, but rather changes to another subject or verse.
Let me repeat….
2 Corinthians 5:12
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.
Is it all of the world?...everone that is born?
Is it part of the world?
I would be GLAD to address this verse....now please answer what I asked.2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Notice the words… Master (despo,thj despotes)…. and bought ( avgora,zw agorazo).
The traditional non-Reformed interpretation is that the Master refers to “Jesus” and bought means “purchased” or “redeemed.” What we have is a redemptive passage wher Christ died for these men but they rejected Him as evidenced by their false teaching and hence brought condemnation to themselves.
On the surface the assumed interpretation sounds plausible. But what did Peter mean here? If we show case on one verse it seems to mean that.
Its much like a Jehovah’s Witness taking one verse… John 14:28
28Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. “……is not the passage much easier to understand if we simply take it as it is written as therefore affirming that the Son is inferior to the Father?”
This is especially so when such proof-texting is detached from context such as the JWs do by divorcing John 14:28 from 14:1-27.
James White helps us here…
Of course, Peter did not write his epistle in English, but in Greek. It is necessary, then, to listen to him as he originally spoke by studying his own words in his own context. This is not to say that an understanding of Greek is essential to the understanding of the text (as the earlier discussion underscored). It is to say, however, that all assumed understandings of the English text must be consistent with the terms the writers themselves used originally. Hence a knowledge of the Greek language may not be absolutely essential but it is surely very helpful.
Finally, I reiterate that if we assume the allegedly “simple” meaning of the text as it is often portrayed, we must deny eternal security and embrace the interpretation put forward by historic Arminianism. Allow me to explain. The text, as it is written, states that these false teachers were not potentially bought (as the questioner initially assumed) but bought. They were “denying the Lord who bought them.” The normal objection seems to present the idea that bought or purchase and redeem are distinct concepts. The implication is that bought or purchase has to do with intent (died to purchase) and can be extended to all men indiscriminately while redeem is restrictive to those who appropriate the work of Christ. It should be noted, though, that the biblical terms redeem (lutro,w lutroo) and bought (avgora,zw, agorazo), when used redemptively, have believers as their objects and hence function synonymously. Therefore, if the non-Reformed believer is to be consistent with his position of a redemptive context, then redeem and purchase are synonyms and not distinct concepts. Is it not the position of even non-Reformed folk that all who are redeemed are also obviously saved? Can one provide a New Testament text that supports the position that Christ has redeemed someone who is not saved (unless 2 Peter 2:1 be the lone exception)? This text does not say He “died for” them, but that he “bought” them.
The position of general (non-specific) atonement maintains that there are multitudes for which Christ died whom He does not actually redeem. However, the position does not assert that there are multitudes Christ redeemed that He actually does not save.
NOW ONCE AGAIN ANSWER THIS...
2 Corinthians 5:12
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.
Is it all of the world?...everone that is born?
Is it part of the world?
While you are at it, address the other verses too
:laugh:Peter is clearly speaking of unsaved, lost men here. They are heretics and they are spreading "damnable heresies". They are bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
I want you to address the verse I asked about....not dodge it.Want to see more?
Again..context context context...Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
This verse says that because of the sin of Adam, the death penalty passed upon all men. Now, even you would agree that means 100% of mankind.
But now, read further, the very same verse says that by the righteousness of Jesus the free gift came upon "all men" unto justification of life.
Now, how can the first "all men" shown mean 100% of mankind in this verse, and the second "all men" mean only a few elect?
What you fail you understand is that Jesus has paid for 100% of mankind's sins, but this free gift must willingly be accepted through faith.
Lets start with this. This is a good case where looking at the Greek would help. You are a KJV only. Please look and see if that word " the free gift came" is in italics. After you check that out, get back to me and we will look at context.
Now how about .....
******2 Corinthians 5:12
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.
Is it all of the world?...everone that is born?
Is it part of the world?
Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
Here the writer (most likely Paul) says the gospel was preached to those who are saved and lost. It profited those who believed, but did not profit those who did not believe.
If Jesus did not die for the lost, then faith would be of no avail.
Brothers...:tonofbricks:
2For indeed we have had the glad tidings [Gospel of God] proclaimed to us just as truly as they [the Israelites of old did when the good news of deliverance from bondage came to them]; but the message they heard did not benefit them, because it was not mixed with faith (with [c]the leaning of the entire personality on God in absolute trust and confidence in His power, wisdom, and goodness) by those who heard it; [d]neither were they united in faith with the ones [Joshua and Caleb] who heard (did believe).
NOW...please dodge no long. This is typical of how you answer...which is not to answer anything. PLease please answer...not just the ONE verse you ran from, but all others.
Thanks...James