Can God change his mind?

[Skandelon]

Christ as man did not know the time of His second coming, as God He did.

There is a mystery to godliness, but some things God has spelled out in plain language in scripture. Two of these things are the omniscience of God and the immutability of God. To say we can't understand these basic elements of God is to say we can't understand anything about God.

Yes, there is a mystery. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we cannot have a element of understanding about the qualities of omniscience and immutability. But to draw hard and fast conclusions which seemingly contradict some scriptural accounts is not "appealing to mystery." It's overstepping your bounds as a finite man.

The question you need to ask yourself is: If the authors of scripture (inspired by God Himself) are okay with us thinking God changed his mind because of the intercession of a righteous man, then why can't you? Indeed, this could be "anthropomorphic" language, but even if that is the case, clearly the authors didn't qualify their language and thus can't have a problem with men understanding God by those anthropomorphic terms. While we all agree that God's nature is immutable, this says nothing of His ability to shift courses, relent, regret or "change his mind." That indeed is mysterious, but shouldn't be dismissed as impossible simply because your finite mind can't reconcile it with your understanding of His other attributes.

 

[RAdam]

The scripture writers tell us that God knew all His works from the beginning of the world. That means that God knew everything He would do, including extending Hezekiah's life. If God knew that then He didn't change His mind, He had always purposed to do that. If God didn't know that, then the scripture is wrong (impossible) and God is not omniscient (impossible).

The only logical conclusion one can come to is that God had always planned to extend mercy to Hezekiah through that prayer. This shouldn't be thought strange because God always purposed to save His people through the intercession of Christ.

 

[Skandelon]

The scripture writers tell us that God knew all His works from the beginning of the world. That means that God knew everything He would do, including extending Hezekiah's life. If God knew that then He didn't change His mind, He had always purposed to do that. If God didn't know that, then the scripture is wrong (impossible) and God is not omniscient (impossible).

The only logical conclusion one can come to is that God had always planned to extend mercy to Hezekiah through that prayer. This shouldn't be thought strange because God always purposed to save His people through the intercession of Christ.

You bring up "logic" but what you must recognize is that when talking about universal or infinite matters that are unable to be tested or fully examined you are limited to what is called "inductive reasoning" or "inductive logic." A process by which men formulate conclusions based upon limited observations. At best, this form of "logic" only serves to support a "theory" based upon finite understanding and observation. It goes beyond the revealed "mystery" and draws unfounded conclusions. Conclusions, which seemingly contradict the scriptures clear narrative.

An omniscient God who changes his mind in the scripture's narrative is a mystery, period. Why draw further conclusions about what God did or did not do when you, as a finite creature, are not privy to such knowledge? Why not simply say, "His ways are higher than our ways," and refuse to contradict the clear reading of the text?

 

[webdog]

Webdog,

Do you think when God said to Hez. "he would die and not live" there was an implicit exception in that statement - i.e., if Hez. prays and seeks God's favor then he will not die and live? If you don't believe there was that implicit exception, then do you believe that God made a wrong prediction about what would happen to Hez.?

No. That's eisegesis. Scripture says what it means, and means what it says. Same with God telling Moses He was going to wipe out the nation of Israel.

 

[webdog]

Christ as man did not know the time of His second coming, as God He did.

There is a mystery to godliness, but some things God has spelled out in plain language in scripture. Two of these things are the omniscience of God and the immutability of God. To say we can't understand these basic elements of God is to say we can't understand anything about God.

What you are saying sounds like Dualism. Christ's natures cannot be separated, He is both 100% Man and 100% God. That understanding in itself is unfathomable, so why would God's dealing with man within the scope of time be fathomable?

 

[Andy T.]

No. That's eisegesis. Scripture says what it means, and means what it says. Same with God telling Moses He was going to wipe out the nation of Israel.

So you don't think there was an implicit exception in God telling Hezekiah that he was going to die? If not, was God making a prediction that Hez. was going to die? And so God's prediction was wrong?

In many (most) of the warnings in the Bible, there is an implicit exception - i.e., the promise of mercy if sought after by the person(s) receiving the warning.

 

[webdog]

So you don't think there was an implicit exception in God telling Hezekiah that he was going to die? If not, was God making a prediction that Hez. was going to die? And so God's prediction was wrong?

In many (most) of the warnings in the Bible, there is an implicit exception - i.e., the promise of mercy if sought after by the person(s) receiving the warning.

Like I said, that is reading into the text something that is not there. God was not making a prediction, He flat out said Hezekiah was going to die and to get his house in order. There was no disclaimer following. He even stated that He heard Hezekiah's prayer and based on that prayer He was granting another 15 years of life. This is just the plain reading of the text, we should not read more into it than that.

 

[RAdam]

No. That's eisegesis. Scripture says what it means, and means what it says. Same with God telling Moses He was going to wipe out the nation of Israel.

So did God originally plan to wipe out Israel?

 

[RAdam]

What you are saying sounds like Dualism. Christ's natures cannot be separated, He is both 100% Man and 100% God. That understanding in itself is unfathomable, so why would God's dealing with man within the scope of time be fathomable?

Some things Christ said as man, some as God. Christ, who is God, cried aloud from the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Obviously, as man He uttered that remark. Christ has two natures, He is both man and God at the same time. This is a great mystery, but it is obvious that some things concern His humanity, some Him as God.

 

[webdog]

So did God originally plan to wipe out Israel?

“I have seen how stubborn and rebellious these people are. 10 Now leave me alone so my fierce anger can blaze against them, and I will destroy them. Then I will make you, Moses, into a great nation.”

..........

 

[RAdam]

Again I ask, was God's original plan to wipe out Israel?

 

[webdog]

Again I ask, was God's original plan to wipe out Israel?

Define "original plan". I posted what God said in His Word.

 

[Skandelon]

Again I ask, was God's original plan to wipe out Israel?

It appears from scripture that his "original plan" was to deliver Israel from slavery and take them to a land He had prepared for them. It then appears that God got angry with them for their idolatry and decided to destroy them, but Moses interceded on their behalf so the Lord relented and let them live.

What is not clear about that?

 

[RAdam]

It appears from scripture that his "original plan" was to deliver Israel from slavery and take them to a land He had prepared for them. It then appears that God got angry with them for their idolatry and decided to destroy them, but Moses interceded on their behalf so the Lord relented and let them live.

What is not clear about that?

So He changed His mind twice?

 

[RAdam]

Define "original plan". I posted what God said in His Word.

What I mean is, was it God's original plan to destroy Israel due to their idolatry with the calf?

 

[Skandelon]

So He changed His mind twice?

Probably not in the way we change our mind. He is God. But, I'm simply reading the narrative and telling you what it says. If the author of scripture doesn't have a problem saying that God changed his mind, why should I?

 

[RAdam]

So God got out in the wilderness with Israel and discovered they were stiffnecked and thus decided to wipe them out. Then He decided against this course of action due to the intercession of Moses.

Problem is, He didn't just figure out that Israel was stiffnecked in Exodus 32, He knew before He created the world they were going to rebel. Yet He promised to bring out of that nation the Messiah, the seed. Now, either God was prepared to break His promise when He told Moses He was going to destroy Israel (which is impossible because all the promises of God are yea and amen) or He has purposed all along to spare the nation through the intercession of Moses. I'll go with the latter since it doesn't diminish any attribute of God are charge Him with nearly breaking a promise.

 

[webdog]

What I mean is, was it God's original plan to destroy Israel due to their idolatry with the calf?

What did He say?

 

[Skandelon]

So God got out in the wilderness with Israel and discovered they were stiffnecked and thus decided to wipe them out. Then He decided against this course of action due to the intercession of Moses.

Problem is, He didn't just figure out that Israel was stiffnecked in Exodus 32, He knew before He created the world they were going to rebel.

Again, you are using "inductive logic" which supports a theory about how God's characteristic of Omniscience presumably affects how he must interact within time with his creation. You, a finite creature, cannot know how God must have acted, thought or interacted. You can only say what the authoritative WORD states, period. That is why Webdog smartly keeps asking you, "What did He say?"

Yet He promised to bring out of that nation the Messiah, the seed.

Which He could have done through other means. He did say to Moses after threatening to destroy Israel, "I will make a great nation from you," didn't he? God has options. He has a free will, doesn't He?

 

[GBC Pastor]

Which He could have done through other means. He did say to Moses after threatening to destroy Israel, "I will make a great nation from you," didn't he? God has options. He has a free will, doesn't He?

Those were my thoughts exactly. God would not have violated His promise if He had destroyed Israel. He was still promising to preserve Moses and make of him a great nation.