Oh Lord, Is It I?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mr 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

One thing stands out to me in this passage is that not one, none of the twelve, believed in OSAS or they would have asked Jesus if God is a liar. If they believed in OSAS they would have asked Christ if He understood what ‘eternal’ meant. Something is indeed different in this new breed of OSAS believers. If they had existed in Christ day they would have set Him straight and in short order.


Far to the contrary of giving the Lord a lesson on the true menaing of the word ‘eternal’ and the finer points of OSAS, every one of them considered their own standing before God by asking, “Is it I?” A very telling passage of Scripture indeed.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I'm not able to connect the dots that you are connecting, HP. :flower:

Do you think that the disciples 100% understood the concept of being "saved" during the Last Supper? They had not received the Holy Spirit yet. Jesus hadn't died on the cross yet.

I don't read this as them questioning each other's salvation (even if they understood that term). I see this as them questioning each other's loyalty to Christ.

I'm sorry, but I don't see this as a OSAS issue.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Somehow Scarlett I did not think some would. How could it possibly be speaking of their salvation? OSAS is an absolutely sound presupposition to read into any passage is it not? It sure worked when Romans 11 was discussed so surely it will work here as well. Why if the Holy Spirit had not been poured out, how could any even think for a minute they had 'eternal' life.............................or could they?


Possibly we might need to consider this passage, and the 'eternal life' promised to those prior to Pentecost more carefully.

 

[Trotter]

Somehow Scarlett I did not think some would. How could it possibly be speaking of their salvation? OSAS is an absolutely sound presupposition to read into any passage is it not? It sure worked when Romans 11 was discussed so surely it will work here as well. Why if the Holy Spirit had not been poured out, how could any even think for a minute they had 'eternal' life.............................or could they?


Possibly we might need to consider this passage, and the 'eternal life' promised to those prior to Pentecost more carefully.

You been sniffing the Sharpies again?

The passage you quoted has nothing whatsoever to do with salvation. Scarlett nailed it on the head... the disciples were questioning their own loyalty to the Lord. Jesus had not died for the sins of man at that time, so there was no slavation through His blood at that time. As Scarlett said, the disciples did not understand salvation yet.

Eternal security lies in God's hand and not our own. Man cannot save himself as only God can save; likewise, man cannot undo what only God can do. As the Jesus said, on one can snatch us out of God's hand.

 

[annsni]

I agree with Scarlett and Trotter. This has NOTHING to do with salvation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

This might prove to a very interesting thread. No eternal life for anyone prior to the death of Christ. Hmmmmmm.

 

[DHK]

This might prove to a very interesting thread. No eternal life for anyone prior to the death of Christ. Hmmmmmm.

Are you sure about that?

John 6:68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Matthew 16:15-16 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

 

[annsni]

This might prove to a very interesting thread. No eternal life for anyone prior to the death of Christ. Hmmmmmm.

Where did anyone say that there was no eternal life prior to the death of Christ?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, it would certainly not be my position that no one could inherit eternal life prior to Christ's death. I believe the passages you mention should be considered in support of inheriting eternal life prior to the death of Christ. It would not be my position that the disciples had to wait until Penecost to receive the promise of eternal life either.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Maybe I misunderstood some. Maybe the disciples indeed were asking concerning the standing of their salvation/eternal life by asking if it was them.

How about going waaaaaaay out on a limb of 'posssibilities?' Is it even 'possible' that they might have been questioning their personal standing before God by asking "Is it I?'

 

[Aaron]

Mr 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

One thing stands out to me in this passage is that not one, none of the twelve, believed in OSAS or they would have asked Jesus if God is a liar. If they believed in OSAS they would have asked Christ if He understood what ‘eternal’ meant. Something is indeed different in this new breed of OSAS believers. If they had existed in Christ day they would have set Him straight and in short order.


Far to the contrary of giving the Lord a lesson on the true menaing of the word ‘eternal’ and the finer points of OSAS, every one of them considered their own standing before God by asking, “Is it I?” A very telling passage of Scripture indeed.

Seeing one's self in the light of Christ's perfection would give anyone pause. It means knowing one's self, and understanding that the heart is deceitful above all and desperately wicked. Do I really love Christ, or am I merely betraying Him with a kiss?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Aaron: Seeing one's self in the light of Christ's perfection would give anyone pause. It means knowing one's self, and understanding that the heart is deceitful above all and desperately wicked. Do I really love Christ, or am I merely betraying Him with a kiss?

HP: Now seeing how deceitful and desperately wicked the heart is,………… are you certain anyone is going to be safe in heaven? DHK does not desire to go where Hitler is, but how much more wicked can you get than ‘deceitful and desperately wicked??’

Aaron, are you suggesting that one can be deceived as to their standing before God? Can a believer have doubts as to whether or not they have ‘eternal’ life? is Does the possibility exist one could even have a firm grip on the understanding of the word ‘eternal’ and believe they have eternal life, and yet in reality have a desperately wicked heart and as such question whether or not it would have been better that they had never been born?

I would think that we need to settle whether or not any of the disciples were saved, or even could have been saved, when they asked the question, “Is it I.”

Were any, or could have any, of the disciples been in possession of eternal life prior to Christ’s death? Can a believer in reality betray Christ and have a certain hope of eternal life when they do?

 

[annsni]

HP: Now seeing how deceitful and desperately wicked the heart is,………… are you certain anyone is going to be safe in heaven? DHK does not desire to go where Hitler is, but how much more wicked can you get than ‘deceitful and desperately wicked??’

Aaron, are you suggesting that one can be deceived as to their standing before God? Can a believer have doubts as to whether or not they have ‘eternal’ life? is Does the possibility exist one could even have a firm grip on the understanding of the word ‘eternal’ and believe they have eternal life, and yet in reality have a desperately wicked heart and as such question whether or not it would have been better that they had never been born?

I would think that we need to settle whether or not any of the disciples were saved, or even could have been saved, when they asked the question, “Is it I.”

Were any, or could have any, of the disciples been in possession of eternal life prior to Christ’s death? Can a believer in reality betray Christ and have a certain hope of eternal life when they do?

I honestly don't think that one of us will be able to stand in front of Jesus Christ standing there looking Him in the eye saying "I'm in". Instead I can only see that we would be there and in the light of His holiness, fall at His feet in humble fear. We can be fully confident that we are saved and yet realizing just what we truly are compared to Christ will bring us to our knees. Knowing we are saved still doesn't match up to the perfection of Christ.

 

[steaver]

Mr 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?
20 And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish.
21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

One thing stands out to me in this passage is that not one, none of the twelve, believed in OSAS or they would have asked Jesus if God is a liar. If they believed in OSAS they would have asked Christ if He understood what ‘eternal’ meant. Something is indeed different in this new breed of OSAS believers. If they had existed in Christ day they would have set Him straight and in short order.


Far to the contrary of giving the Lord a lesson on the true menaing of the word ‘eternal’ and the finer points of OSAS, every one of them considered their own standing before God by asking, “Is it I?” A very telling passage of Scripture indeed.

One would have to KNOW they have eternal life before they could even entertain the thought that they might lose it. Devils do not possess eternal life...

Jhn 6:70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


And with that this thread is yet another failed attempt to debunk the doctrine of eternal security in Christ.

Do you believe devils possess eternal life HP? Hey, you tried, but it was a bad idea to put this scripture up against eternal security. Close it up and move on to greener pastures.

:wavey:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Steaver: One would have to KNOW they have eternal life before they could even entertain the thought that they might lose it.

HP: You make a great point Steaver. :thumbsup:

Eleven other disciples questioned if it could have been them. Now according to your own admission, those eleven would have had to have known they had eternal life to qustion if they could lose it. They certainly questioned if it could be said of them that they would have been better off not even being born. Now you are thinking!!:applause:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: Knowing we are saved still doesn't match up to the perfection of Christ.

HP: Ann, you are trying to make this discussion about something that it is not. This discussion is why did the disciples of Christ ALL questioned sorrowfully whether or not it was them that might 'betray' the Lord, and as such being better off that they had not been born according to Christ. They were not asking anything about matching up to the perfection of Christ.

 

[annsni]

HP: Ann, you are trying to make this discussion about something that it is not. This discussion is why did the disciples of Christ ALL questioned sorrowfully whether or not it was them that might 'betray' the Lord, and as such being better off that they had not been born according to Christ. They were not asking anything about matching up to the perfection of Christ.

Well you're making this about eternal security which it is not. I'm saying that they were in the presence of the Messiah and they were pretty confident about that. Why would they not question about their own faithfulness?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ann: Why would they not question about their own faithfulness?

HP: You miss the point Ann. One would have been better off 'not having been born' than to betray the Lord. Is it ever the case that a believer would have been better off 'not being born?' They were certainly questioning if that might be the case in their own lives. They must have seen the distinct ‘possibility’ of their own failure as costing them their eternal relationship with Christ, otherwise why ‘sorrowfully’ ask “Is it I” that it could be said of that it would have been better if I had never been born?

 

[Trotter]

Is it ever the case that a believer would have been better off 'not being born?'

No. A believer is forgiven and, therefore, not condemned.

They were certainly questioning if that might be the case in their own lives. They must have seen the distinct ‘possibility’ of their own failure as costing them their eternal relationship with Christ, otherwise why ‘sorrowfully’ ask “Is it I” that it could be said of that it would have been better if I had never been born?

Again, you are reading into it what is not there. The verses are not allegory, but very straight-forward in the subject.

Each disciple knew enough to know that Jesus was both serious and knew what was to happen. Each one of them knew their own sinfulness, especially when they contrasted themselves with Jesus Himself. Thus each one knew that he was capable of stumbling and betraying their Lord. It had nothing to do with losing their salvation as salvation is not even a part of this picture.

Jesus knew which it was that would betray Him. But He also knew that all the others would forsake Him that night. Did they cast away any hope of salvation when they fled, leaving Jesus to the mercy of the mob and a kangaroo court? Absolutely not. They were forgiven for abandoning Him in that dark hour, and Peter even had to be berated by Jesus to understand this.

What of Judas? Judas never accepted Jesus for who He was and chose money instead. He was sorrowful for what he did, but he never asked forgiveness for it. Jesus said that it would be better for him to have never been born as He knew that Judas would die unrepentant and unforgiven, condemned to Hell.

 

[DHK]

No. A believer is forgiven and, therefore, not condemned.


Again, you are reading into it what is not there. The verses are not allegory, but very straight-forward in the subject.

Each disciple knew enough to know that Jesus was both serious and knew what was to happen. Each one of them knew their own sinfulness, especially when they contrasted themselves with Jesus Himself. Thus each one knew that he was capable of stumbling and betraying their Lord. It had nothing to do with losing their salvation as salvation is not even a part of this picture.

Make sure to emphasize to HP (in light of your statement above) that this is also about man's total depravity, his inherent sin nature right from birth.