Does regeneration and conversion happen simultaneously?

[Winman]

Contrary to your comment Scripture states......
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Trusting Christ is the evidence and fruit that a person has been reborn

Well, I am certainly not disagreeing with Romans 8:14. But what I am saying is that all men are influenced to a degree by the Spirit of God. I promise you, if God's word and Spirit were not in the world, it would be a much worse place than it is. The world is restrained to a degree by the Spirit, and I think I can show that.

2 Thess 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Here Paul is speaking of the antichrist. At this time he is being held back or restrained. I believe this is the Holy Spirit that is holding him back. But when the Holy Spirit is taken out (rapture), then the antichrist will emerge on the world and be revealed. He will be free to go out and deceive all the nations of the world.

 

[Winman]

Trusting Christ is the evidence and fruit that a person has been reborn

No, you are off here. You do not receive the Spirit until after you believe.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

You will not find another verse that so specifically shows the order of events in salvation. First, a man hears the word of God, the gospel. Second, a man trusts or believes the gospel. Third, a man receives the Holy Spirit. This can be shown elsewhere.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here Peter told the Jews if they repent and trust on Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins they will then receive the Holy Ghost.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

To whom does God give the power or authority to become a son of God? To those that receive Jesus and believe on him.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Here Paul asks the Galatians how they received the Holy Spirit. Was it by the works of the law? No. Was it by hearing and believing God's word? Yes.

So, a person always believes first before they receive the Spirit. This is shown numerous times in scripture, you will not find an exception.

 

[Theopolis]

I believe conviction occurs before a person is regenerated and that it is shown in scripture.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Note that when these Jews heard Peter's preaching they were deeply convicted (they were pricked in their heart). Notice that they realized their peril (Men and brethren, what shall we do?).

These men were convicted, and they were fearful. They realized they were responsible for crucifying the very Son of God. I don't know about you, but I would have been very fearful too.

But now notice Peter tells them to repent. What does he mean here? I believe he was telling them to turn from unbelief to belief and trust on Christ. They had believed Jesus to be a blasphemer. This is what the priests had convinced the people, the formal charge against Jesus. But now they realized that Jesus was the promised Christ the Jews had waited on for centuries. They already knew he was the one who would save them from their sins.

John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

I show this verse to show what the people understood about the coming Christ. Even the Samaritans knew the Christ would come and save them from their sins.

So, Peter is telling them to turn from this false belief they had held about Jesus and believe that he was this promised Christ, and to be baptized in his name for the remission or forgiveness of their sins.

And now, very important, note that Peter tells them if they do repent and trust on Christ that they will then receive the promise of the Holy Spirit. This is the indwelling Holy Spirit that abides with a believer forever.

What Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers fail to understand is that the Holy Spirit first works outside a man, on the exterior. He convicts a man, and teaches a man the truth. When a man hears the word of God through the Spirit and believes it, then and only then does the Spirit enter a man and regenerate him.

These Jews were convicted by the Holy Spirit, but from the exterior, from the outside. When they believed on Jesus, then the Holy Spirit entered them.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Here Jesus was speaking to his disciples. This was before Jesus was glorified, so the Holy Spirit was not yet given to believers. Notice Jesus says the Holy Spirit is at this time dwelling with them, but afterward shall be "in you".

This is what Calvinists and Doctrines of Gracers misunderstand. The Holy Spirit first works on a man from the outside, but when a man believes he enters and dwells on the inside of a man.

If the Jews on the day of Pentacost were already regenerated to be convicted, Peter would not have told them they would receive the Holy Spirit, because he would have already been in them.

But what if the Holy Spirit can regenerate a man without indwelling him?

 

[Winman]

But what if the Holy Spirit can regenerate a man without indwelling him?

Well, I am not sure what you (and the Calvinists/Doctrines of Gracers) mean by regenerate, some here have a different definition than what I and others consider regeneration.

I consider regeneration to mean to be made spiritually alive. It is actually passing from death to life. I do not believe it is done in steps as some here promote.

Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes he will convict the world of sin. He did not say regenerate a person to believe.

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Did Jesus say the Holy Spirit would regenerate a man to give him the ability to believe? No, and you will not find one single verse in all of scripture that says that. Trust me, if there was a verse like this the Calvinists would be quoting it constantly. They can't, because it cannot be found even once.

Now, if you have a different definition of regeneration than I do, then perhaps in your eyes the Holy Spirit regenerates a man. If you consider teaching a man, enlightening a man, convicting a man regneneration, then yes, the Holy Spirit does all of this. But I do not consider that regeneration.

See, the problem is you have been taught that a man does not have the ability to believe. I would say that is utterly unscriptural and there is no scripture to support it. In fact, I believe there are numerous scriptures that prove that any man can believe if he so chooses to do so.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Here Jesus commanded the listeners to believe in him. Now, if it was impossible to believe unless Jesus regenerated them, don't you think this a rather absurd command?

And this is the problem with Calvinism. You have the prophets, God, and Jesus himself telling men to believe many numerous times, all the while knowing this is an impossibility if Calvinism is true. I'm sorry, but this is absolutely ridiculous and I am amazed that anybody could believe a doctrine like this.

God invites people to believe and be saved. But if they cannot then this is an insincere and misleading invitation. God is basically mocking men, commanding them to do something he knows they cannot. In fact, if Calvinism is true, it is God's own fault they cannot, because they believe God cursed man in the garden and took away his ability to believe.

Is this your God? I certainly don't believe in a God like that, and have great difficulty in understanding how someone can believe God would act in such a cruel manner if it were true.

 

[Theopolis]

Well, I am not sure what you (and the Calvinists/Doctrines of Gracers)

First of all, I am not a Calvinist. In fact I disagree with 80% - 90% of TULIP theology.

I consider regeneration to mean to be made spiritually alive.

So do I

Did Jesus say the Holy Spirit would regenerate a man to give him the ability to believe?

It's quite clear to me from Scripture that a man cannot come to Jesus unless God first does something to initiate a man's coming.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

Now, if you have a different definition of regeneration than I do, then perhaps in your eyes the Holy Spirit regenerates a man. If you consider teaching a man, enlightening a man, convicting a man regneneration, then yes, the Holy Spirit does all of this. But I do not consider that regeneration.

I think I've mentioned this before, but if not, then allow me to repeat it. In my view to become regenerated is to be made spiritually alive. Becoming regenerated and receiving spiritual life differs from repenting and believing at which point a person receives the promise of eternal life. I see a distinct and noticeable difference between receiving spiritual life, and the receiving of the promise of eternal life.

See, the problem is you have been taught that a man does not have the ability to believe.

Once again see John 6:44,65

 

[Winman]

Let me ask you something.

In the Old Testament, what was the seal God gave believers? Was it not circumcision?

How are believers sealed today? The Holy Spirit.

Now, did Abraham believe when he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Let's see.

Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

So we see here that Abraham believed while he was yet uncircumcised, and afterward received circumcision as a seal of that righteousness imputed to him through faith.

And that is how it works now as well. You first believe, and then you are sealed afterward by the Holy Spirit.

And was physical circumcision performed in steps? I hope not, that would be something I would not want to experience. No, it was a once and for all seal that could not be reversed. And that is how we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as well, it is a once and for all sealing, the Spirit abides with believers forever.

 

[Theopolis]

And that is how it works now as well. You first believe, and then you are sealed afterward by the Holy Spirit.

I agree

Yet not a single verse of Scripture says a person is regenerated by faith. There is not a single verse to be found which states; "believe and thou shalt be regenerated"

 

[Winman]

I agree

Yet not a single verse of Scripture says a person is regenerated by faith. There is not a single verse to be found which states; "believe and thou shalt be regenerated"

Well, now you are getting picky. The word "regenerated" is not found in the scriptures anywhere. Check your concordance and see for yourself. So, now you are asking for the impossible.

But Jesus said that the dead who believe shall live.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Jesus didn't say he who believes though he were alive did he? No, he said "though he were dead". This shows the unregenerated can believe. And if they do they shall be made alive.

Jesus actually said this twice in the scriptures.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Did Jesus say the living shall hear his voice here? No, he said "the dead" shall hear his voice, and those that hear (that is, believe) shall live.

But you are correct, there is no verse that says a person shall believe and be regenerated, because the word regenerated is not found in the sciptures.

 

[Theopolis]

Well, now you are getting picky. The word "regenerated" is not found in the scriptures anywhere.

I suggest you look at Titus 3:5

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

 

[Winman]

I suggest you look at Titus 3:5

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You said regenerated, not regeneration. But this verse does not say whether this occured before faith or after faith does it?

I have to get off the computer for awhile, but I'll be back later.

 

[Theopolis]

You said regenerated, not regeneration..

Now whose getting picky?

 

[Winman]

Now whose getting picky?

Here is your exact question:

Yet not a single verse of Scripture says a person is regenerated by faith. There is not a single verse to be found which states; "believe and thou shalt be regenerated"

And I answered that the word "regenerated" is not found in the scriptures which is absolutely true. I was simply answering your question. Then you come back with Titus 3:5 which does not mention believing whatsoever, and therefore cannot be used to argue faith comes before or after being regenerated. If you believe it is teaching that faith follows or is a product of regeneration, then you are reading into this verse what it simply does not say.

Is that what you were trying to argue?, that Titus 3:5 proves faith follows regeneration? If so, it does not.

I think even you agree that we can only be regenerated by the Holy Spirit. I provided several scriptures that shows a person must believe before receiving the Spirit. I will show another, there are many.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

How does this verse say we receive the Spirit? Through faith.

Tell me, isn't that what it says?

One of the great promises in the OT was not only of having sins forgiven, but also of receiving the Holy Spirit. This is what Jesus spoke of to his disciples (who were believers) before Pentacost.

Acts 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The prophets had prophesied that the Holy Spirit would be poured out on believers. The Jews understood this.

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Tell me, were Jesus's disciples believers before the Holy Spirit was poured out on them on the day of Pentacost? Or were they unbelievers and suddenly became believers that day?

I think you know the answer. The disciples were believers long before they received the Spirit. They had to wait till Jesus was glorified as the scriptures said.

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The teaching that a man must be regenerated to believe is false. The scriptures clearly show many people believed on Christ before they received the Spirit on the day of Pentacost.

I don't know how much proof I have to show you before you will believe this. I am not making this stuff up.

 

[Theopolis]

Is that what you were trying to argue?, that Titus 3:5 proves faith follows regeneration?

I wasn't arguing Titus 3:5. I just pointed out that regeneration is found in the text.

Just as a side note the words "born again" as found in John 3:3 and elsewhere also refer to regeneration ...
born - gennaō in the Greek
to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring. (Strongs)

Now compare born in John 3:3 with the word regeneration as found in Titus 3:5
regeneration
1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death - http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3824&t=KJV

In other words born again and regeneration are in reference to the same thing.

I think even you agree that we can only be regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

That I do.
But you believe that the Holy Spirit cannot regenerate you without your help.

I provided several scriptures that shows a person must believe before receiving the Spirit.

Once again receiving the Spirit and being quickened (made alive) by Spirit is not the same thing. Like you I use to think it was.

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

The promise of the Spirit in the verse above is in reference to having the Holy Spirit indwell the one who responds in faith, it is not in reference to regeneration.

How does this verse say we receive the Spirit? Through faith.

Tell me, isn't that what it says?

I won't because I agree.

 

[Winman]

That I do.
But you believe that the Holy Spirit cannot regenerate you without your help.

Well, we have to believe, that is an absolute necessity. You have been taught this is a work, but the scriptures clearly teach that believing is not a work.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Do you see how works and faith are contrasted here? Believing is not a work. Oh, some men claim it is, but that is not what the scriptures say. Believe the scriptures, not men.

Once again receiving the Spirit and being quickened (made alive) by Spirit is not the same thing. Like you I use to think it was.

Fine, if you can show scripture that supports this I will be glad to look at it. I would bet that it was the teaching of men that changed your opinion.

The promise of the Spirit in the verse above is in reference to having the Holy Spirit indwell the one who responds in faith, it is not in reference to regeneration.

What do you mean by this? Where is the Holy Spirit when you are regenerated in your belief?

I see nothing in scripture to support that the Holy Spirit ever leaves once he enters a man in the NT. So, if a man is regenerated when the Holy Spirit enters him, then why in the world would he need to receive the Holy Spirit again?

So, please tell me, where is the Holy Spirit when he regenerates a man? I am asking for his location. Is he (the Spirit) inside the man or outside the man?

 

[Theopolis]

Well, we have to believe, that is an absolute necessity. You have been taught this is a work, but the scriptures clearly teach that believing is not a work.

I never said believing wasn't a necessity. I believe it is. The question is this; Is believing necessary to become regenerated, or is it necessary to become saved. Secondly I don't view repenting and believing as a work.

Believe the scriptures, not men.

That's exactly what I'm doing whenever I disagree with you.

I would bet that it was the teaching of men that changed your opinion.

If you were to bet money then you would lose. What I currently believe wasn't taught to me by any man. I learned it solely through many hours of prayerful study of Scripture, spent in quiet time and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach and guide me into all truth.

What do you mean by this? Where is the Holy Spirit when you are regenerated in your belief?

The word Genesis means "creation" the word "regenerates" means to recreate something. Where was the Holy Spirit when He created the earth? Was He inside the earth, or was He outside? Does the Holy Spirit have to be into something in order to recreate it? I don't think so.

So, if a man is regenerated when the Holy Spirit enters him,

What makes you sure the Holy Spirit has to enter someone to regenerate him?

then why in the world would he need to receive the Holy Spirit again?

The Holy Spirit comes and indwells a person upon a response of faith, not when the person is regenerated.

So, please tell me, where is the Holy Spirit when he regenerates a man? I am asking for his location. Is he (the Spirit) inside the man or outside the man?

See above, I believe I answer that already.

 

[Winman]

I never said believing wasn't a necessity. I believe it is. The question is this; Is believing necessary to become regenerated, or is it necessary to become saved. Secondly I don't view repenting and believing as a work.

I believe that the scriptures clearly teach you have to believe to be born again or regenerated.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

To whom does God give the power to "become" the sons of God?

Now, to me this verse is very easy to understand. To those who receive Jesus, which is just another way of saying believe on him as explained by this verse itself, to those persons God gave the power to become the sons of God. Believing is absolutely shown first.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

What does Jesus say comes first here, believing or being made alive?

Did Jesus say that he that believeth in me "though he were dead" shall live?

You believe a person must be made alive to believe. Jesus said the dead could believe and if they do "yet shall live" which shows they will be made alive afterward.

Isn't that so?

If you were to bet money then you would lose. What I currently believe wasn't taught to me by any man. I learned it solely through many hours of prayerful study of Scripture, spent in quiet time and allowing the Holy Spirit to teach and guide me into all truth.

I think this is wonderful. You and I will become good friends, for just like you I want to know the truth. I want to know God's interpretation of the scriptures, not what men teach. I want to know EXACTLY what God is telling me and nothing else. I am even afraid of my own impressions, and ask the Lord to protect me from being deceived by others or even my own self. So, you are a true man after my own heart, we will be good friends. I know I come across very harsh to people, but the scriptures are very important to me, and I get a little upset when people try to pervert what scripture easily says.

The word Genesis means "creation" the word "regenerates" means to recreate something. Where was the Holy Spirit when He created the earth? Was He inside the earth, or was He outside? Does the Holy Spirit have to be into something in order to recreate it? I don't think so.

We are in agreement here. I believe God speaks to a man from the outside. Now, unlike you, I do not believe a person is regenerated or made spiritually alive until he believes.

I think I can show an example of this from scripture in the parable of the sower.

Luke 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

In the parable of the sower, the seed represents the word of God, the soil represents the heart of the hearer. This wayside soil is hard, it is trodden down, it has been walked on. The seed cannot penetrate it and lies on the surface, and so the birds can come and take it away.

Now, the good ground is the opposite. It is plowed deep and the stones and thorns have been removed. It receives the seed deep where it takes root.

Luke 8:8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The very same seed was sown to both the good ground and the ground by the wayside. God did not perform some special work for the good ground. The condition of the ground is the responsibility of the hearer, and Jesus shows that.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

A Calvinist will say the farmer is responsible for the condition of the ground, and in real life that is true. But in this parable Jesus makes it clear that the hearer is responsible for the condition of the ground.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

You see, Jesus told his disciples to be very careful what they hear. For those who listen to him and believe, more will be given. But to those who will not listen and believe, even that which was given them shall be taken away.

So, we hear the word of God with our ears, but we believe with the heart. It is when we believe that the Spirit enters us and regenerates us. Many folks hear the gospel, but it goes in one ear and out the other. But to the ones that believe, then the Holy Spirit enters them and the word springs to life and they are born again, just as in the parable of the sower.

 

[Theopolis]

I believe that the scriptures clearly teach you have to believe to be born again or regenerated.

As I once did also.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

To whom does God give the power to "become" the sons of God?

believers
but once again becoming regenerated is not the same thing as becoming a son of God.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

What does Jesus say comes first here, believing or being made alive?

That verse isn't even in reference to regeneration. It's merely a reference to those who have (past tense) trusted Jesus as their personal Savior, that they can have the confidence that Jesus will one day resurrect their bodies from the grave.

I think this is wonderful. You and I will become good friends, for just like you I want to know the truth. I want to know God's interpretation of the scriptures, not what men teach. I want to know EXACTLY what God is telling me and nothing else. I am even afraid of my own impressions, and ask the Lord to protect me from being deceived by others or even my own self. So, you are a true man after my own heart, we will be good friends. I know I come across very harsh to people, but the scriptures are very important to me, and I get a little upset when people try to pervert what scripture easily says.

That is excellent, and I would like nothing better for us to become good friends also. It's just that I believe the Holy Spirit has been teaching me something concerning this topic, and I believe He is reaching out to you also.

We are in agreement here. I believe God speaks to a man from the outside. Now, unlike you, I do not believe a person is regenerated or made spiritually alive until he believes.

Six years ago, I would have agreed with you, and in fact did.

I think I can show an example of this from scripture in the parable of the sower.

Luke 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

In the parable of the sower, the seed represents the word of God, the soil represents the heart of the hearer. This wayside soil is hard, it is trodden down, it has been walked on. The seed cannot penetrate it and lies on the surface, and so the birds can come and take it away.

Now, the good ground is the opposite. It is plowed deep and the stones and thorns have been removed. It receives the seed deep where it takes root.

Luke 8:8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The very same seed was sown to both the good ground and the ground by the wayside. God did not perform some special work for the good ground. The condition of the ground is the responsibility of the hearer, and Jesus shows that.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

A Calvinist will say the farmer is responsible for the condition of the ground, and in real life that is true. But in this parable Jesus makes it clear that the hearer is responsible for the condition of the ground.

Just a thought. What smart farmer would go out to sow his valuable and costly seed unless he first worked the ground?

And lastly, please carefully meditate upon the following often overlooked verse of Scripture.
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[Winman]

believers
but once again becoming regenerated is not the same thing as becoming a son of God.

I understand the distinction you are making, but I know of no scripture to support this. If you have scripture that shows this, I will be glad to consider it.

That verse isn't even in reference to regeneration. It's merely a reference to those who have (past tense) trusted Jesus as their personal Savior, that they can have the confidence that Jesus will one day resurrect their bodies from the grave.

Well, I believe he is speaking of the spiritually dead as he was in John 5.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

If you read this passage you will see he is speaking of the spiritually dead, not physically dead, because a few verses later he makes a similar statement, but this time specifically shows he is speaking of the physically dead.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Notice the differences, he does not say "and now is" in vs. 28. He also specifically says all that are in the graves. So verse 25 is speaking of the spiritually dead, vs. 28 is speaking of the physically dead.

That is excellent, and I would like nothing better for us to become good friends also. It's just that I believe the Holy Spirit has been teaching me something concerning this topic, and I believe He is reaching out to you also.

I have never believed that man can believe without the influence of the Holy Spirit. I believe God does that through his word.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Does Jesus mention any supernatural work here that causes men to come to him? No. He says all that have heard and learned of the Father come to him. How do we hear and learn from God? I don't know about you, but I have only learned from the scriptures, I have never heard any voices from heaven, and if I did I would be very reluctant to believe them.

You know, Paul said faith comes by hearing the word of God. If there was something more, then Paul was pretty negligent not to mention it.

Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

If regeneration by the Holy Spirit is required to have faith, why did Paul fail to mention it?

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Again, Paul asks how a person can possibly believe in Jesus unless they have heard of him. Why didn't he also ask how a person can possibly believe unless they have been regenerated?

So, you are not going to change my opinion on this. No way I am going to believe Paul was forgetful or negligent to tell us such important doctrine. If a person has to be regenerated to believe, he would have told us so.

Just a thought. What smart farmer would go out to sow his valuable and costly seed unless he first worked the ground?

That is a very reasonable question, but Jesus made it very clear that the listener was responsible for what they heard, or refused to hear. It is said even better in Mark.

Mark 4:18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

It is the hearer's own fault they are not fruitful. They let the cares of the world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things to enter in and choke the word.

And in all three accounts of the parable of the sower, at the end Jesus warns his disciples to be careful or take heed what they hear. He is placing the responsibility on them.

Mark 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

When someone sincerely listens to Jesus and believes his words, to them he will reveal more. But to those who refuse to listen, to them even which was given shall be taken away. This is the fowls that came down and ate the seed that fell by the wayside. Fowls often represent sin in scripture.

 

[Theopolis]

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Does Jesus mention any supernatural work here that causes men to come to him? No. He says all that have heard and learned of the Father come to him. How do we hear and learn from God?

I currently don't have time to address every point you made but will add a comment concerning the above portion of your reply.

The supernatural work is mentioned in the preceding verse ......
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

and again in the following verse ........
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Have a good nite

 

[Winman]

I currently don't have time to address every point you made but will add a comment concerning the above portion of your reply.

The supernatural work is mentioned in the preceding verse ......
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day.

and again in the following verse ........
2 Cor 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Have a good nite

Well, let me say something from the outset, I believe the scriptures themselves are a supernatural work. I believe the Holy Spirit inspired men to record the words of God.

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2 Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

So, I believe whenever a man sincerely reads or hears the scriptures and believes he comes under the direct influence of the Holy Spirit.

What I do not believe is that a person walking down the street who is not the least bit interested in God or Jesus Christ is suddenly hit like a bolt of lightning by the Holy Spirit and instantly becomes interested in spiritual things.

If anybody here has had an experience like that it would make tremendous reading.

So, were you absolutely uninterested in the things of God, and then suddenly had a supernatural experience that caused an interest without hearing of God either through the scriptures, or preaching, or the witness of a believer?

My first knowledge of God and Jesus Christ came as a small boy going to church. My family was not very religious whatsoever, but we did attend church on occasion. I believed Jesus was the son of God and thought he was very good. I did not know much more about him. I knew he died on the cross but was a little older before I found out that was to pay for my sins.

I think my next experiences was through a neighborhood vacation bible school. A neighbor invited me and my brothers. It was fun, I was 7 or 8 years old. I memorized John 3:16 and believed it, although I had no real conviction about being a sinner worthy of death.

But anyway, I was not suddenly struck out of the blue. I learned from church and bible school. I learned from hearing the scriptures.

But you seem to imply you had some sort of supernatural experience. Would you describe this please? In fact, it would make interesting reading if anyone came to Christ through some supernatural experience like this.

My experience was very normal, like most other people.