Does regeneration and conversion happen simultaneously?

[Theopolis]

What I do not believe is that a person walking down the street who is not the least bit interested in .... Jesus Christ is suddenly hit like a bolt of lightning by the Holy Spirit and instantly becomes interested

If anybody here has had an experience like that it would make tremendous reading.

You can read such a story in Acts Chapter 9:1-31
Below is a part of the story

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Acts 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Acst 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

 

[Winman]

You can read such a story in Acts Chapter 9:1-31
Below is a part of the story

Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
Acts 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Acts 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Acst 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

This actually disproves your argument if you read it carefully.

Did Paul believe when the light shown on him? No.

What happened next? Jesus spoke to him.

"Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"

This is the word of God. Did Paul believe yet? No, because he asked,

"who art thou Lord?"

Now, don't you think that strange? Did not Paul understand who he was persecuting? He was present at Stephen's stoning, and had been imprisoning Christians for months. People were fleeing for their lives, and that is why Paul was going to Damascus, to capture Christians who had fled there.

So, I see Paul resisting the Holy Spirit here, and I think Jesus's response confirms that. What did Jesus say next?

"And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

Can't you see that Paul was still fighting and resisting the Holy Spirit? Jesus said he was kicking against the pricks.

But now, he has heard Jesus himself tell him his name. There is no escape now, he must either submit to Jesus or continue to rebel. Now look at what he says,

"Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?"

Now, you may disagree, but I believe Paul got saved at that very moment. Just as the scriptures always show, he heard the word of God and then believed.

Now, let me ask you, did Paul have the Holy Spirit? No. In fact, he did not receive the Holy Spirit until 3 days later.

Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

After 3 days Ananias who was sent by God came and laid hands on him, and at this time he received the Spirit.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

So, as you see, Paul was saved just like every other believer in the NT. He first heard the word of God, second believed it, and third received the Holy Spirit afterward.

It's right there in the scriptures.

 

[Theopolis]

So, as you see, Paul was saved just like every other believer in the NT. He first heard the word of God, second believed it, and third received the Holy Spirit afterward.

It's right there in the scriptures.

I agree 100% with that

But the problem here as I see it is that you keep referring back to being saved, when I want to discuss regeneration. The difficulty in discussing regeneration with you stems from your inability to make a distinction between becoming regenerated and becoming saved. Becoming regenerated and becoming saved are not synonymous. Unless you are willing to look at them separately you will continue to make the same mistakes.

Oftentimes people posts comments from Calvinist sources to try to prove that regeneration precedes faith. But I don't recall of anyone ever posting a quote from an Arminian source which supports the idea that regeneration precedes faith, so let me be the first to do so. I know it's not important what other men think, Scripture is really our final standard of truth, nevertheless, I just want to make it clear that the concept that regeneration precedes faith is not solely a Calvinist concept.

"The Jews had some general notion of the new birth; but, like many among Christians, they put the acts of proselytism, baptism, etc., in the place of the Holy Spirit and his influence: they acknowledged that a man must be born again; but they made that new birth to consist in profession, confession, and external washing." (Adam Clarke)

 

[Allan]

I agree 100% with that

But the problem here as I see it is that you keep referring back to being saved, when I want to discuss regeneration. The difficulty in discussing regeneration with you stems from your inability to make a distinction between becoming regenerated and becoming saved. Becoming regenerated and becoming saved are not synonymous. Unless you are willing to look at them separately you will continue to make the same mistakes.

You can not look at them seperately because scripture does not allow for it.

Set down on a piece of paper, just what regeneration does for a person.
I agree with the Reformed view of what it does:
1. It justifies
2. It sanctifies
3. It makes one righteous (due in fact to the preceding two)
4. It sets the propitiation to the person
5. (this isn't a main view) the Holy Spirit is given to them

By these 4 or 5 aspects the person is said to be born-again and due to this one is made a new creation with new desires and will now - believe.

However scripture states the exact opposite, that is by/through faith all of these things come into being:
It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

"The Jews had some general notion of the new birth; but, like many among Christians, they put the acts of proselytism, baptism, etc., in the place of the Holy Spirit and his influence: they acknowledged that a man must be born again; but they made that new birth to consist in profession, confession, and external washing." (Adam Clarke)

You are incorrect in your assumptiont that Clarke viewed regeneration preceded faith, and the above is incorrectly understood by you to be such a view. Here is something that will hopefully clarify his meaning by his own words regarding John 1:12-13

Joh 1:12
Gave he power - Εξουσιαν, Privilege, honor, dignity, or right. He who is made a child of God enjoys the greatest privilege which the Divine Being can confer on this side eternity. Those who accept Jesus Christ, as he is offered to them in the Gospel, have, through his blood, a right to this sonship; for by that sacrifice this blessing was purchased; and the fullest promises of God confirm it to all who believe. And those who are engrafted in the heavenly family have the highest honor and dignity to which it is possible for a human soul to arrive. What an astonishing thought is this! The sinner, who was an heir to all God’s curses, has, through the sacrifice of Jesus, a claim on the mercy of the Most High, and a right to be saved! Even justice itself, on the ground of its holy and eternal nature, gives salvation to the vilest who take refuge in this atonement; for justice has nothing to grant, or Heaven to give, which the blood of the Son of God has not merited.

and vs 13

Joh 1:13
Which were born, not of blood - Who were regenerated, ουκ εξ αἱματων, not of bloods - the union of father and mother, or of a distinguished or illustrious ancestry; for the Hebrew language makes use of the plural to point out the dignity or excellence of a thing: and probably by this the evangelist intended to show his countrymen, that having Abraham and Sarah for their parents would not entitle them to the blessings of the new covenant; as no man could lay claim to them, but in consequence of being born of God; therefore, neither the will of the flesh - any thing that the corrupt heart of man could purpose or determine in its own behalf; nor the will of man - any thing that another may be disposed to do in our behalf, can avail here; this new birth must come through the will of God - through; his own unlimited power and boundless mercy, prescribing salvation by Christ Jesus alone. It has been already observed that the Jews required circumcision, baptism, and sacrifice, in order to make a proselyte. They allow that the Israelites had in Egypt cast off circumcision, and were consequently out of the covenant; but at length they were circumcised, and they mingled the blood of circumcision with the blood of the paschal lamb, and from this union of bloods they were again made the children of God. See Lightfoot. This was the only way by which the Jews could be made the sons of God; but the evangelist shows them that, under the Gospel dispensation, no person could become a child of God, but by being spiritually regenerated.

Thus he places 12 as preceding 13 in both logical and chronological order.

 

[Theopolis]

However scripture states the exact opposite, that is by/through faith all of these things come into being:
It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

Indeed, I agree 100%, but nowhere does Scripture ever say we are regenerated by faith.

 

[Allan]

Indeed, I agree 100%, but nowhere does Scripture ever say we are regenerated by faith.

Agreed. And no where is scripture does it ever state God is a Trinity. Though from scripture we see these facts are self evident.

Yet everything that makes up what regeneration 'is' scripture states is brought into being 'by or through' faith. (IOW- you can not be regenerate unless you are justified, sanctified, righteous, propitiated) Ergo, faith precedes regeneration. The term 'regeneration' is nothing more than a word that regards the specific actions that make a person a new creation or born of God. We are regenerated by God, just as we are declared justified by God, and sanctified by God But scripture also states that prior to God doing them, faith precedes His action.

However all these things happen or comes into being 'by or through' faith. Faith precedes all these aspects. The only thing faith does not precede is God's calling, because it is God's calling (the Holy Spirit) using His word and His people, that brings faith into being.

Being 'born' is to be made (or better remade) into a 'new' creation. Something happened to the old nature - what?
What is the old nature?
If it was made new - where did the sin go? How?

 

[Theopolis]

We are regenerated by God

I agree.

But scripture also states that prior to God doing them, faith precedes His action. The only thing faith does not precede is God's calling, because it is God's calling

Are you saying the unregenerate must first have faith before God regenerates them?

 

[Allan]

Are you saying the unregenerate must first have faith before God regenerates them?

Again, I have answered this already.

 

[Theopolis]

Originally Posted by Theopolis
Are you saying the unregenerate must first have faith before God regenerates them?

Again, I have answered this already.

You will have to excuse me because I am having a difficult time understanding your replies, so if you would be so kind as to provide me with a simple yes or no answer to question above, I then would know where you stand.

 

[Allan]

You will have to excuse me because I am having a difficult time understanding your replies, so if you would be so kind as to provide me with a simple yes or no answer to question above, I then would know where you stand.

As I said, I have already, not only provided said answer earlier, but if you even read skimmingly over this thread alone you would already know the answer to that question, beginning from the very first page.

 

[Theopolis]

As I said, I have already, not only provided said answer earlier, but if you even read skimmingly over this thread alone you would already know the answer to that question, beginning from the very first page.

OK, I am trying to understand your answer. I even went back to the first page, and from reading your previous replies, this is what I think you believe ....

Allan - "faith (conversion) does precede regeneration"

Therefore, I see your answer as being YES faith does precede regeneration.

Please correct me if that misrepresents your view. Like I previously stated, I have a hard time understanding exactly what it is you believe. The way you word your comments makes it difficult for me personally to understand you, and then you make it even more difficult for me by your repeated unwillingness to clarify your answers for me in a way that I would be able to understand your position.

 

[Winman]

I absolutely believe faith precedes rengeneration. It is shown repeatedly in the scriptures.

 

[Allan]

OK, I am trying to understand your answer. I even went back to the first page, and from reading your previous replies, this is what I think you believe ....



Therefore, I see your answer as being YES faith does precede regeneration.

Please correct me if that misrepresents your view. Like I previously stated, I have a hard time understanding exactly what it is you believe. The way you word your comments makes it difficult for me personally to understand you, and then you make it even more difficult for me by your repeated unwillingness to clarify your answers for me in a way that I would be able to understand your position.

I don't think it is very hard. I have stated it matter of factly not only on this thread but on numerous other recent threads as well as, in the past, created two threads myself on the very topic. From my own statement which you quoted, there is no way you could not understand my position on this issue. I get tired of playing all these games all the time. Not necessarily with you but in general on here with others.
My position is without question - faith precedes regeneration and is noted as such not only in this thread but various others which haved recently been speaking on the subject.

 

[Theopolis]

I absolutely believe faith precedes rengeneration. It is shown repeatedly in the scriptures.

I can find verses which say "believe and you will be saved", but have never found a single verse that says "believe and you will be regenerated."

 

[OldRegular]

Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the call of the Holy Spirit.

Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, came to Jesus Christ by night to question Him.

John 3:3, KJV
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Various forms of expression are employed in the Scriptures, to denote the change that occurs at the new birth or regeneration:

It is taking away the heart of stone, and giving a heart of flesh, a new heart.

Ezekiel 36:26, KJV
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

It is putting the law in the heart.

Hebrews 8:10, KJV
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It is quickening or making alive.

John 6:63, KJV
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

John 5:21, KJV
21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

It is a resurrection from the spiritual death.

John 5:25, KJV
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Dagg notes [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]: “So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

God through the richness of His grace has granted to His elect spiritual life so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration. It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience. Jesus Christ explains conversion in the following manner:

John 3:16, KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Apostle Paul explains conversion simply as follows:

Romans 10:9, KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 

[Theopolis]

Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration. It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience. Jesus Christ explains conversion in the following manner:

The Apostle Paul explains conversion simply as follows:

Romans 10:9, KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Great comments

 

[Allan]

Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ.

Here is one major doctrinal error in your theology.
This is biblically impossible, and here are two reasons why depending on what one would hold to:

1. You have a person (though now alive) who is still in their tresspasses and sin being IN Christ (in union with) or more literally from the Greek - at one with Christ. We know biblically they are still in their trespasses and sins because without repentance their sins are not yet forgiven them, for if we will confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (among other verses).

You have placed the unholy into the holy, placed sin into that which is righteous and thus pollute the very holiness of God. Scripture tells us that the holy thing does not make the unholy thing become holy (or purifies it) by coming in contact with it, yet the unholy thing will defile that which is holy when it comes in contact with it. Scripture tells us over and over to discern between the holy and unholy, clean and unclean things lest we corrupt and pollute the things of God. You have effectively place that which at emnity with God in Him.

Now on the other hand if the above isn't your view


The 2nd issue is this :
If they are made alive, and placed into union with Christ (at one with Him) and has had their sins already forgiven and removed and made a new creation in Christ.. please show how any aspect of this was done apart from faith, and then explain why scripture state that every aspect that makes one a 'new creation' (justification, sanctification, righteousness, the propitiation applied, and indwelling of the holy Spirit) is ALL by faith... and yet without ALL of the above aspects one is not and can not be - regenerate.

Dagg further notes:

Not sure why you keep quoting John Dagg since he is consistantly incorrect in his understanding.
He shows himself incorrect in that he describes what regenerate entails (and I agree) but places it out of scriptural order, as the scriptures state all these aspects whereby one is called a new creation, all transpire by faith, not apart from it. This isn't about a theological system but scripture own statement as to not only 'what' it does, but 'How' it does it (how it transpires).

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the Gospel and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration.

Again, scripturally this is not only incorrect but out right wrong. Coversion is the point inwhich one becomes regenerate.

It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience. Jesus Christ explains conversion in the following manner:

Actaully John 3:16 describes both conversion AND regeneration.
Since the regenerate are in Christ they therefore HAVE life and that life in Christ is question eternal life. Christ states point blank that one must believe in order to obtain eternal life. Why? Because they did not have eternal life to begin with.

And what exactly is eternal life? Jesus states in John 17 that it is a relationship with the Father and Himself. This in fact precludes a person being in Christ prior to faith since being in Christ (union with Him) refers specifically to a relationship with Him.

 

[Allan]

Great comments

With all due respect brother I must agree with the others on here who have spoken with you about posting in the Baptist only section. This is not against you but in accordance with the rules of the Baptist Board. You are not a Baptist but as your profile states you are apart of the Christian Missionary Alliance (CMA), though as close as one can come to being Baptist without actually claiming the name, it is still in fact not baptist.

There is a section a little lower down on the main screen which is for all other denominations and many of us go there to post as well and speak with other christians of differing views and even many of the same as our own. Start up this thread there or have the moderators move it to that section and continue it from there

May the Lord richly bless you brother.
Allan

 

[Theopolis]

With all due respect brother I must agree with the others on here who have spoken with you about posting in the Baptist only section. This is not against you but in accordance with the rules of the Baptist Board. You are not a Baptist but as your profile states you are apart of the Christian Missionary Alliance (CMA), though as close as one can come to being Baptist without actually claiming the name, it is still in fact not baptist.

There is a section a little lower down on the main screen which is for all other denominations and many of us go there to post as well and speak with other christians of differing views and even many of the same as our own. Start up this thread there or have the moderators move it to that section and continue it from there

May the Lord richly bless you brother.
Allan

Do I have to attend a Baptist Church to be Baptist, or can I be Baptist without attending a Baptist Church? I am Baptist in my theology, I am not CMA in my theology even though they are very close to the Baptist's in beliefs as you have already stated. Actually I would prefer to attend the Baptist Church which I use to attend, but they are experiencing internal problems at this moment and I didn't want to become part of it. So actually I am Baptist theologically, and in heart. In fact, as far as I can tell, my views are more in line with Baptist teachings than others participating in here who claim to be Baptist. Therefore I will continue to participate in these forums because of the love I have for my Christian Baptist brothers and sisters in Christ. And if I get thrown out, I will only come back with a different handle and e-mail address anyway, because I need the sort of fellowship that I have experienced in here thus far.

 

[Cypress]

Theopolis, since you are a Christian you should be content to follow the rules. Determine what they are and abide by them and you will have a clear conscience.