For starters, by using the phrase "cruel monster" takes it to another level that Skand's statement did not. So yes, I've heard worse, as you have so aptly demonstrated here.
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Any Calvinist willing to walk through Romans 11 with me?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
How about answering the question I asked. If God elects men unconditionally he also therefore unconditionally passes by other men in their sins, correct? Unconditionally by definition means without reason or cause.
If so, then why does God tell men countless times in the scriptures to repent of sin? After all, sin is not their problem, their problem is that God unconditionally passed by them so that they perish.
Please answer that question if you will.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Unconditional doesn't mean without reason or cause. It means we did nothing, in and of ourselves, to warrant God's grace in electing us to salvation.
Scripture tells us God chose the elect based on the kind intention of His will. His reasons remain a mystery to us, although we can rule out merit on our part.
peace to you
raying:I can't answer your question, because I don't hold to the premise that men go to hell without reason or cause. They go to hell because of their sin and unbelief.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
And they sin and don't believe because _________________?
Because that is what they want to do and want to believe. Oh boy, haven't you and I been down this road already?
I think we both know where it leads - disagreement.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Why is that what they want to do and want to believe?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
We are all sinners by nature. All deserve to go to hell. None deserve mercy.
You believe God saw merit in some. The merit God saw, according to you, is that He looked through the corridors of time and saw who would believe the gospel and who wouldn't, and based on that information, elected some to salvation.
Isn't that what you believe?
If so, then you know the reason God has elected. He elected based on merit. Therefore, grace isn't grace, and mercy isn't mercy, in your system. A person deserves the intervention of God based on what they do, not according to the kind intention of God's will.
peace to you
raying:
menageriekeeper
Active Member
That maybe what skandelon believes, but that isn't exactly what all non-cals believe.
I believe God created man knowing good and well that Adam would choose to sin, thus plunging all of mankind into spiritual and physical death. I also believe that God knew that once mankind knew the difference between good and evil there would be some who would choose good, even though we aren't entirely capable of "being" good and our attempts at "being good" in no way approach God's definition of the words(filthy rags is how scripture describes our attempts).
God then choose to have mercy on those who by belief in His Word (that is Christ or in the OT the promise of Christ) made the feeble attempt even though there is no way mere man can bridge gap. Does this mean we merited that mercy? By no means. We are all deserving of the same punishment for we all sin. We can't be "good", but we can certainly believe. Just as the "cloud of witnesses" believed.
Just because we believe God is God and Christ is Christ, doesn't mean we deserve salvation any more than those who don't. It only means that God chose to have compassion on us and provide for us the means of salvation.
God didn't take away Adam's ability to believe when He cursed him to death. Adam could most certainly have turned his back and walked away from the garden not believing in the promise of God to provide a way back to harmony with Him.
Belief does not equal merit, nor does it equal a work on our part as it is not the action of belief on OUR part that bridges the gap, but the action of God before we ever believed that accomplished the work.
I believe God created man knowing good and well that Adam would choose to sin, thus plunging all of mankind into spiritual and physical death. I also believe that God knew that once mankind knew the difference between good and evil there would be some who would choose good, even though we aren't entirely capable of "being" good and our attempts at "being good" in no way approach God's definition of the words(filthy rags is how scripture describes our attempts).
God then choose to have mercy on those who by belief in His Word (that is Christ or in the OT the promise of Christ) made the feeble attempt even though there is no way mere man can bridge gap. Does this mean we merited that mercy? By no means. We are all deserving of the same punishment for we all sin. We can't be "good", but we can certainly believe. Just as the "cloud of witnesses" believed.
Just because we believe God is God and Christ is Christ, doesn't mean we deserve salvation any more than those who don't. It only means that God chose to have compassion on us and provide for us the means of salvation.
God didn't take away Adam's ability to believe when He cursed him to death. Adam could most certainly have turned his back and walked away from the garden not believing in the promise of God to provide a way back to harmony with Him.
Belief does not equal merit, nor does it equal a work on our part as it is not the action of belief on OUR part that bridges the gap, but the action of God before we ever believed that accomplished the work.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
How do you reconcile that belief with Romans 3:10-12 "as it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one; (11)There is none who understands. There is none who seeks for God; (12)All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, there is not even one.'"?
The point is, in your belief system, God responds to what man does in deciding who to have mercy on. There is no getting around that. If God is responding to what some men/women do in election (by definition, those who didn't "do" what was necessary for God to respond favorably are passed by), then you have a system of merit.
In the reformed system, as I understand it, men/women respond to God's intervention with repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. God's reasoning for His choice remains a mystery other than it is the kind intention of His will.
Your system makes belief a "merit" because you have God responding to "belief" in deciding who to have compassion and mercy on.
If God responds to something men do in granting salvation, then those men/women have merited their salvation and those who didn't "do" what is needed are passed over by God because they didn't do what they needed to do to merit God's intervention.
In the reformed system, belief is a response to God's intervention; faith, itself, is a gift of God. The reason for intervention and passing over remain part of the hidden will of God, which is what scripture says.
So, in your system... God responds to man
In the reformed system... Man responds to God
peace to you
raying:
Last edited by a moderator:
Like I said, we just discussed this about a week ago - we are going down the road of T.D., sin nature, etc. Maybe a few months from now I will be ready to rehash it all over again, but not now. :wavey:
menageriekeeper
Active Member
You seem to have a problem with that, that I don't. Where is written that God can't respond to man?
In the garden, when Adam sinned, God had a reponse.
When Cain murdered Abel, God had a response.
When Abram picked up his family in obedience to God's wishes, God had a response to that.
Why do you have a problem with God responding to man's actions? How does it affect God's soverienty (sp) for Him to respond to action of man?
See, I agree with you right up to this point. There is nothing man can do earn his own salvation except believe. And that we both agree is essential. You believe God essentially forces us to believe, and I beleve God give us the choice.
Another quick statement on this - on another board I used to frequent, I saw a statement that Calvinism was a "doctrine of demons" and that Cals were essentially devil worshippers.
So yes, I have seen worse.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
I asked, "Why is that what they want to do and want to believe?"
We have NOT hashed out this question (if we have point to the post). I know why you don't want to answer it. It is because it reveals the difficulty of your position with regard to divine culpability. I didn't expect you would answer it. Most Calvinists don't.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Keep reading, when you do you will notice that Paul reveals a "new righteousness" which is accomplished not through works but through faith.
Romans 3:10 is one of the most misapplied text in scripture. Paul is showing how no one is righteous according to the law, he is NOT showing that no one is righteous according to faith. Calvinists make the mistake of taking this passage out of its clear context and drawing the conclusion that man can't have faith in response to God's revelation, when in reality Paul is only saying that man can't fulfill the demands of the law. Paul is showing that all, both Jew and Gentiles, have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. But, the good news is that there is a NEW RIGHTEOUSNESS being revealed.
Don't make the mistake of taking a commentary on the "old righteousness" (law) and try to make it fit the "new righteousness" (faith). That is very poor hermeneutics and leads to false doctrine.
Actually that is not accurate. In our system Man responds to God and then God rewards man.
In your system: God makes man respond the way he has predetermined him to respond and then rewards him for it.
We did hash this out - see the "Can God Change His Mind" thread.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Just read through it and never found where you answered the question: "Why is that what they want to do and want to believe?"
Seeing that it would only take you one sentence to answer this question I think we all can see why you wouldn't want to answer it. Divine Culpability. :godisgood:
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Maybe I wasn't clear. I understand God responds to man. What I am speaking of is your belief that God responds to man in chosing whom He will elect to salvation.
If God responds to what man does in election for salvation, then man has merited his salvation. Don't you see? All those who didn't "do" what others did weren't elected. God passed them by and elected others.
The entire concept ignores the meaning of the words "foreknew" and "predestination".
I believe God gave everyone a choice as well. I also believe scripture is very clear that every single person rejected God's offer of salvation.
That God intervenes in the lives of those whom He has chosen according to the kind intention of His will is a testimony to His mercy and compassion.
God intervenes in the lives of His elect, He regenerates, convicts, draws by the power of Holy Spirit. Man responds to God's intervention by voluntarily repenting and accepting Jesus Christ by faith.
So, God doesn't force man to do anything. Man responds to God's loving act of regeneration.
peace to you
raying: