Let GOD Be GOD!

[Skandelon]

As if you are infallibly objective? Certainly not.

No, but I was as entrenched in Calvinism as you are (whether you believe it or not) and I realize how difficult it is to see another perspective clearly without taking off the Calvinistic lenses...which really gives a new sense of clarity. I'm not trying to suggest I'm always objective, because I'm not. There have been many times as a non-Calvinist I have stepped back from my current view on a subject and re-read a text trying to really understand another perspective to see if they may be right. It can't be about winning a debate or showing up your "opponent" as it sometimes is with me. I have to force myself to be objective and fair.

Answer me this (and since you are keeping count and yipping about the Romans 11 thing, I'll remind you I asked this several times and got no response from you):

How is it, then, that man is said to have a heart with intentions that are "only evil continually?"
Genesis 6:5 "The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

How is it, then, that man is said to have a heart that is desperately sick and un-understandable?

Jeremiah 17:9"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?

How can a heart--described by the simple quoting of scripture, mind you, be able to long for God and the things of God? It cannot.

Please provide the post where you asked this and did not get an answer. Thanks, I may have overlooked it.

Here is my answer:

The heart CAN'T long for God or the things of God UNLESS God does something first. We BOTH believe that, not just you. Understand?

So what does God do?

Your view: He regenerates man irresistibly bringing him to faith

My view: He sent Christ to die and disciple us, He sent the apostles, He sent the scripture, He sent His Church, He sent the Holy Spirit, He sent the powerful Gospel truth all of which CAN bring a man to faith (faith comes by hearing); but it can be rejected.

So, you see we both believe man is corrupt from birth, what we DON'T agree on is that man is born HARDENED...i.e. "unable to see, hear, understand and repent."

The mistake Calvinists make is that they think by proving that MAN is an evil enemy of God they have proven MAN is "UNABLE TO SEE, HEAR and UNDERSTAND" God's divine revelation calling his enemies to be reconciled to Him. But I've clearly shown that this is a condition of a man who has BECOME HARDENED/BLINDED, and NOT the condition of a man from birth.

 

[Amy.G]

Hopefully, I've just answered you.

Excellently! :thumbsup:


Honestly, this is the first time I've ever heard someone say that Jesus didn't come to the Jews. That is a new one on me.

 

[Winman]

Excellently! :thumbsup:


Honestly, this is the first time I've ever heard someone say that Jesus didn't come to the Jews. That is a new one on me.

Exactly. The last line of Old Regulars original post said:

So let GOD be GOD! Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus Christ came to save HIS people and HIS people only.

To this I answered that he misapplied Matt 1:21 which is speaking of the Jews.

And John 1:11 says Jesus came unto his own and his own received him not, so a Calvinist cannot argue that 100% of God's people will be saved.

So, his whole OP post was a total misapplication to attempt to force scripture to fit his doctrine.

 

[OldRegular]

Exactly. The last line of Old Regulars original post said:



To this I answered that he misapplied Matt 1:21 which is speaking of the Jews.

You are sadly mistaken Winman; sadly, taking the position that you do you are accusing Scripture of lying. Matthew 1:21 states: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now if as you state this passage is speaking of the Jews you are saying it is untrue since HE did not save the Jews.:tear::tear::tear::tear:

And John 1:11 says Jesus came unto his own and his own received him not, so a Calvinist cannot argue that 100% of God's people will be saved.

So, his whole OP post was a total misapplication to attempt to force scripture to fit his doctrine.

Obviously to one who understands Scripture John 1:11 is speaking of Jews while Matthew 1:21 is speaking of the elect. GOD will bring all HIS chosen ones to Salvation. All means 100% in this instance.

 

[OldRegular]

Well, I came to realize that many here hold the writings and philosophies of men in much higher regard than the scriptures. So, if you have noticed in the last few weeks I have been quoting men quite a bit. That is for you, not for me.

If I would have posted that Matt 1:21 was primarily speaking of the Jews (which it was), you would have accused me of misinterpreting the scriptures. So I posted a well known commentary to show this has always been the understanding of this verse.

Ignorance of Scripture is a poor excuse. And I am sure that you are not sufficiently learned in the commentaries on Scripture to state "this has always been the understanding of this verse." You obviously are unfamiliar with Gill!

 

[menageriekeeper]

Now if as you state this passage is speaking of the Jews you are saying it is untrue since HE did not save the Jews.

Because He has not yet(in our estimation) doesn't mean He won't in the future. We can't see that far.

Just as Abel couldn't see 4000 or so years into the future to how Christ would save him from his sin, we can't say that "well, since Christ didn't save the Jews 2000 years ago He must not be able to or going to".

Let God be God. Will He not do what is right?

 

[OldRegular]

If I would have posted that Matt 1:21 was primarily speaking of the Jews (which it was), you would have accused me of misinterpreting the scriptures. So I posted a well known commentary to show this has always been the understanding of this verse.

You would have been misinterpreting Scripture and so did JFB. To claim that Matthew 1:21 is speaking of the Jews is nonsense, in fact it is accusing Scripture of being untrustworthy since the passage states: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now were the Jews saved from their sins. Obviously not since most rejected Jesus Christ. Only the elect among the Jews believed as the Apostle Paul states in Romans 11:1-5.

 

[OldRegular]

HE TEMPORARILY BLINDED THEM FROM THE GOSPEL! HE HID THE GOSPEL IN PARABLES. HE SENT THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR AND MADE THEM "UNABLE TO SEE, HEAR, UNDERSTAND OR REPENT, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN SAVED."

\
Could you show Scripture to establish the above!

 

[Skandelon]

Only the elect among the Jews believed as the Apostle Paul states in Romans 11:1-5.

OldRegular, please read on past verse 5 and you will see that in verse 7 Paul separates the "elect" of Israel from "the rest who were hardened." Verses 8-10 go on to describe those being hardened, but Paul is clear in verse 11 to point out that "they" (the ones being hardened) have not "stumbled beyond recovery." And in verse 14 Paul even believes those same people who are being hardened might be saved once provoked to envy. And in verse 21 Paul explains that though they have been "cut off" (hardened) that they can, as "natural branches," be grafted back into the tree.

What does that mean in your system? Please explain.

 

[OldRegular]

Perhaps you do not know this, but Jesus only came to preach to the Jews. That is exactly what Jesus is saying unless you think him a liar. It was after the Jews rejected Christ that the gospel was sent to the Gentiles.

What was Jesus Christ doing with the woman in Samaria? The Jews had not rejected the Gospel at this point in time Winman!

 

[OldRegular]

OldRegular, please read on past verse 5 and you will see that in verse 7 Paul separates the "elect" of Israel from "the rest who were hardened." Verses 8-10 go on to describe those being hardened, but Paul is clear in verse 11 to point out that "they" (the ones being hardened) have not "stumbled beyond recovery." And in verse 14 Paul even believes those same people who are being hardened might be saved once provoked to envy. And in verse 21 Paul explains that though they have been "cut off" (hardened) that they can, as "natural branches," be grafted back into the tree.

What does that mean in your system? Please explain.

I don't have a system Skandelon, only the Bible. The Bible tells me:

John 17: 11, 12
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

GOD will bring all those HE chose before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-7] to Salvation. As the Scripture above states "none will be lost".

 

[OldRegular]

Hopefully, I've just answered you.

Not really! But I will show you where you are wrong!

 

[Winman]

You would have been misinterpreting Scripture and so did JFB. To claim that Matthew 1:21 is speaking of the Jews is nonsense, in fact it is accusing Scripture of being untrustworthy since the passage states: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now were the Jews saved from their sins. Obviously not since most rejected Jesus Christ. Only the elect among the Jews believed as the Apostle Paul states in Romans 11:1-5.

You are just plain wrong. Jesus clearly came first to the Jews and it is said many times in the scriptures. Look what Peter said in Acts.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

I could show you much more scripture to show that Jesus came first to save Israel. But I doubt you would listen no matter how much evidence I show.

 

[Skandelon]

\
Could you show Scripture to establish the above!

Sure, I've shown it many times, but for you I'll gladly do it again:

HE HID THE GOSPEL IN PARABLES.
Mark 4:10 When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11 He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "


HE TEMPORARILY BLINDED THEM FROM THE GOSPEL!
19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you-if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive, and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these-the natural branches-be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery: a partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.


HE SENT THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR
8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, to this day .

"UNABLE TO SEE, HEAR, UNDERSTAND OR REPENT, OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT HAVE BEEN SAVED."
24 Some were persuaded by what he said, but others did not believe. 25 Disagreeing among themselves, they began to leave after Paul made one statement: "The Holy Spirit correctly spoke through the prophet Isaiah to your forefathers 26 when He said, Go to this people and say: 'You will listen and listen, yet never understand; and you will look and look, yet never perceive. 27 For this people's heart has grown callous, their ears are hard of hearing, and they have shut their eyes; otherwise they might see with their eyes and hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and be converted-and I would heal them.' 28 Therefore, let it be known to you that this saving work of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen!"

 

[Skandelon]

I don't have a system Skandelon, only the Bible. The Bible tells me:

John 17: 11, 12
11. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

GOD will bring all those HE chose before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-7] to Salvation. As the Scripture above states "none will be lost".

Actually, I asked you about how you would interpret Romans 11, we can address this passage after you answer that. okay?

 

[OldRegular]

Ya'll have all gone off on some rabbit trails while I was cleaning my house and baking. So in attempt to clarify where ya'll are going, I'm going to post what I THINK some of you are saying and then ya'll can correct me where I'm wrong.

Part of the arguement seems to be whether the angel was referring to the elect or to the Jews when he told Mary that Jesus would save "his people" from their sins. Winman in post number 2 gave what I believe to be the true meaning of the phrase ie, the angel is referring to the Jewish nation.(more on that in a minute)

You are wrong here "menageriekeeper". If Matthew 1:21 was speaking of the Jews then Scripture is not reliable since Jesus Christ did not save the Jews from their sins. Surely you would not accuse Scripture of not being trustworthy would you?

Then things seem to have disintegrated into an arguement over whether God intended to save the Gentiles from "the beginning" or if Christ was sent only to save the Jews.

You might try reading Genesis 3:15, the initial promise of the redeemer, thousands of years before there were Jews. Also you might read about Job. He said thousands of years before there were Jews: Job 19:25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

So let me give you my view from "the beginning".

There have always been Jews, from the beginning. That is what all those endless geneologies tell us. Adam to Noah (Gen 5), Noah to Abram (gen 10-11). It was only in Abram's time that God decided that this one linage was the one He would call out as "His people" and made a covenant with Abram to that effect IF Abram agreed to it (obeyed) and followed God's commands. It wasn't until Moses' time that God began to fullfil the promises He made to Abraham and called out Abraham's decendents to make a holy people (Lev 20:26) and gave to them the law.

The above is utter nonsense. If you search the Bible you will find that the name Jew first appeared in the book of Esther, during the Babylonian captivity. Jew is derived from Judah, the tribe through which the Incarnate God would enter the world.

. The Jewish people were intended to show God's glory to the nations of the earth. Yes, they failed and they suffered the consequences of that failure and were scattered many times from the land they were promised. It can't be denied that there are still promises yet to be fulfilled to the Jewish people. (not the direction we are going however)

Expand that to include all twelve tribes and you may have hit on the truth.

During all these times of failure however, one thing remained the same: The Jews were still the people God intended to use to bring Christ into the world. Moses to David, David to Christ. (Matt 1) God's intention to use the Jewish people is clear. It doesn't get any clearer.

GOD did use the tribe of Judah to bring Jesus Christ into the world. Once they accomplished that task they were just like any other people.

So when Matt 1:21 tell us that Jesus will save His people from their sins following immediately after giving us His linage how then do we interpret it to mean the elect? (as meant by the Calvinists on the board)

Because the elect are HIS people. Did he save the Jews, only a few. Will he save all the elect. Of Course!

Then to add to it is this passage from Romans:

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

What about to the Jew FIRST isn't clear?

The Gospel was presched to the Jews first. So What!!!

Amy said that those in the OT who wanted salvation had to become Jews for that to happen. Someone disagreed and said she was ignoring all those who were saved before the Law was given. No, she isn't. God says and has always said "if you love me keep my commandments". God may have changed some of the requirements along the way, but whatever the commandments were at that particular time in history, man was always expected to keep them and trust God for the rest.

Amy was wrong and so are you.

Was Job a Jew? NO!

Were the inhabitants of Salem under Melchizedek Jews? NO!

Were those who responded to the preaching of Jonah Jews? NO!

By faith, Hebrews 11 teaches us, were all those from Abel to Christ's death kept from damnation. But it wasn't until Christ was resurrected that they recieved "the promise". (Hebrews 11:39-40) So far, God hasn't ignored anyone, Jew or Gentile.

Sounds OK but what was "the promise"?

BUT HE PUTS THE JEW FIRST.

Not any longer!

Now we can talk about Matt 15:

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Now, who does Christ say He was sent to? It seems awfully plain to me. He was sent to the "lost sheep of Israel".

Yes, He went on and healed the woman's daughter. Why? "Great is thy faith". Even though Christ was sent to the Jews first, He still had compassion on the Gentile. You can't use this passage to support the veiw that Matt 1:21 means Christ was sent to save His "elect" (as Cals define elect)

Christ Himself just told you He was sent to the Jews!

Then explain the woman in Samaria!

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

And HIS own people, the Jews, for the most part rejected HIM because they wanted a Messiah who would throw off the yoke of Rome![/SIZE}

Here again, if Christ was come to the elect in Matt 21, then the above verse must mean that the elect received Him not. How can that be?

Heh! you got one thing correct.:thumbsup: John 1:11 is talking about the Jews. All but a few rejected Jesus Christ and still do!

Matthew 1:21 is talking about the elect. Those chosen by GOD the Father and given to GOD the Son before the foundation of the world. All these will be brought to Salvation: John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Hopefully, I've just answered you.

You get an E for effort!

 

[OldRegular]

Because He has not yet(in our estimation) doesn't mean He won't in the future. We can't see that far.

Just as Abel couldn't see 4000 or so years into the future to how Christ would save him from his sin, we can't say that "well, since Christ didn't save the Jews 2000 years ago He must not be able to or going to".

Let God be God. Will He not do what is right?

I did not say that GOD would not save any Jews. But HE will save Jews the same way HE saves all HIS elect. I have a young niece who was Jewish and whom GOD saved. Her testimony as she has fought melanoma for 6 years has been marvelous!

 

[OldRegular]

You are just plain wrong. Jesus clearly came first to the Jews and it is said many times in the scriptures.

Winman if you would read before your typing finger starts working on over drive you might, just might, get something correct. I have never said that Jesus Christ did not come to the Jews first. I would point out that you have never responded to my question about the woman from Samaria!

Look what Peter said in Acts.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.
23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.
24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Look what else Peter said in Acts 2:23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: The "YE" were the Jews who rejected Jesus Christ and crucified HIM.

Luke 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

I could show you much more scripture to show that Jesus came first to save Israel. But I doubt you would listen no matter how much evidence I show.

GOD is redeeming HIS people. When all the elect have been redeemed then Jesus Christ will return in Power and GREAT GLORY at which time there will be a resurrection of all the dead followed by the Great White Throne Judgment.

Unfortunately people like you won't give HIM all the GLORY but want to keep a little for yourself. Very sad!:tear::tear::tear::tear:

 

[donnA]

Only the Jews who are Christians are among GOD's people. The ones who are unbelievers are just like all unbelievers.

this was my point

 

[The Archangel]

No, but I was as entrenched in Calvinism as you are (whether you believe it or not) and I realize how difficult it is to see another perspective clearly without taking off the Calvinistic lenses...which really gives a new sense of clarity. I'm not trying to suggest I'm always objective, because I'm not. There have been many times as a non-Calvinist I have stepped back from my current view on a subject and re-read a text trying to really understand another perspective to see if they may be right. It can't be about winning a debate or showing up your "opponent" as it sometimes is with me. I have to force myself to be objective and fair.

At least you admit you are not always objective. Perhaps you don't realize you are entrenched in Arminianism? Further, Calvinism is not some outside force that has taken control of me. I embrace Calvinism, gladly. So, "entrenched" is not the correct word.

Remember, I used to be a dyed-in-the-wool Arminian. So I realize that you are not able to remove your Arminian lenses, just as you say that I cannot remove my Calvinist lenses.

Please provide the post where you asked this and did not get an answer. Thanks, I may have overlooked it.

Here is my answer:

The heart CAN'T long for God or the things of God UNLESS God does something first. We BOTH believe that, not just you. Understand?

So what does God do?

Your view: He regenerates man irresistibly bringing him to faith

My view: He sent Christ to die and disciple us, He sent the apostles, He sent the scripture, He sent His Church, He sent the Holy Spirit, He sent the powerful Gospel truth all of which CAN bring a man to faith (faith comes by hearing); but it can be rejected.

So, you see we both believe man is corrupt from birth, what we DON'T agree on is that man is born HARDENED...i.e. "unable to see, hear, understand and repent."

The mistake Calvinists make is that they think by proving that MAN is an evil enemy of God they have proven MAN is "UNABLE TO SEE, HEAR and UNDERSTAND" God's divine revelation calling his enemies to be reconciled to Him. But I've clearly shown that this is a condition of a man who has BECOME HARDENED/BLINDED, and NOT the condition of a man from birth.

What you are describing here is, basically, a universal regeneration. But, that does not comport with the rest of the Scriptures. If you were correct, which you aren't, why would the book of Acts contain these two verses:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed
Acts 16:14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.

If you were correct, there would be no need for Luke to mention that God opened Lydia's heart to pay attention what was said by Paul. If you were correct, her heart should have already been opened.

If you were correct, there would be no need to quantify the Gentiles who believed from the Gentiles who did not, hence the "as many as."

From these two verses alone, it is clear that you presuppositions run contrary to the whole thought-line of Scripture.

Blessings,

The Archangel