Let GOD Be GOD!

[The Archangel]

If you will notice, the phrase "his people" does not occur in Matt 15:24. What I was trying to show you (unsuccessfully) is that "his people" in Matt 1:21 and "his own" in John 1:11 refers to the Jews and not all believers.

Then I showed that Jesus would not at first answer the woman from Canaan.

Jesus did not come to preach to the Gentiles, he came to preach to his own people the Jews. He instructed his disciples to only preach to the Jews. It was only after Jesus was rejected and crucified that the gospel was sent out to the Gentiles.

And, did Jesus save 100% of his people the Jews? No.

Perhaps I should use small, one-syllable words or maybe I should figure out how to draw you a picture.

I am not talking about "His people." Got that? Archangel not talking about "people." Archangel talking about a goof on your part.

You posted:

Matt 1:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

Your goof is in red. This is the ONLY thing I am discussing.

Matthew 1:22-23 says: 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel”


Matthew 15:22-23 says 22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon.” 23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, “Send her away, for she is crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”


The only thing I was pointing out is that you put the wrong scripture verse...you wrote Matthew 1 when, in fact, the passage you were quoting was Matthew 15.


I hope that is clear enough. I can offer no other "Winman" translations and I can't figure out how to make a picture on this board.


The Archangel

 

[menageriekeeper]

:
Originally Posted by menageriekeeper



Hopefully, I've just answered you.

Not really! But I will show you where you are wrong!

Actually, you haven't. You've thrown in some confusing language and few strawmen, but you haven't shown me wrong. All you have shown is that we come from vastly different viewpoints.

I really wish the quote feature here worked better. But since is doesn't I'll have to come respond to your next post to me later. Real life beckons.

 

[kyredneck]

.... for he shall save his people from their sins.....

.......and He was satisfied:

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. Isa 53:11


"It is finished"

 

[OldRegular]

Actually, I asked you about how you would interpret Romans 11, we can address this passage after you answer that. okay?

You have your own thread for that Sk. That is the place to discuss Romans 11. This thread is to discuss the implications of Matthew 1:21.

 

[OldRegular]

.......and He was satisfied:

He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by the knowledge of himself shall my righteous servant justify many; and he shall bear their iniquities. Isa 53:11


"It is finished"

You have just quoted from my favorite chapter in the whole Bible. Thanks!

 

[Winman]

Perhaps I should use small, one-syllable words or maybe I should figure out how to draw you a picture.

I am not talking about "His people." Got that? Archangel not talking about "people." Archangel talking about a goof on your part.

You posted:



Your goof is in red. This is the ONLY thing I am discussing.

Matthew 1:22-23 says: 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23 “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel”


Matthew 15:22-23 says 22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon.” 23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, “Send her away, for she is crying out after us.” 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”


The only thing I was pointing out is that you put the wrong scripture verse...you wrote Matthew 1 when, in fact, the passage you were quoting was Matthew 15.


I hope that is clear enough. I can offer no other "Winman" translations and I can't figure out how to make a picture on this board.

The Archangel

OK, I see my error, thank you.

Now, back to the subject, originally Old Regular had posted Matt 1:21 and finished his OP with this statement:

So let GOD be GOD! Scripture clearly tells us that Jesus Christ came to save HIS people and HIS people only.

This is a misapplication of scripture. Jesus did come to save "his people", but not all of "his people" would be saved. The majority of the Jews rejected Christ.

The real argument here is whether Jesus died for a few elect persons, or for all mankind. It can easily be shown from scripture that Jesus died for all men.
Look what Peter said in Acts speaking to the Jews who were Christ's "people".

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Notice that the intent of Jesus dying on the cross and rising from the dead was to turn "every one of you" from their iniquities. But did all the Jews accept Jesus? No.

And John 1:11 shows the same.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

"His own" in John 1:11 is speaking specifically of the Jews, anybody who says different is twisting and wresting scripture. The Jews were God's people, they were "his own", and Jesus indeed died for every single one of them, but many did not receive him and believe on his name. If a Calvinist wants to argue that Jesus only died for "his own" and saying "his own" only means the elect, then John 1:11 would prove that none of the elect will be saved, because they received him not.

So, the phrase "his people" in Matt 1:21 as Old Regular used it cannot mean the elect, and he is misapplying a meaning to this verse not rightly shown in scripture.

 

[The Archangel]

OK, I see my error, thank you.

Now, back to the subject, originally Old Regular had posted Matt 1:21 and finished his OP with this statement:

FINALLY! Thank you.

This is a misapplication of scripture. Jesus did come to save "his people", but not all of "his people" would be saved. The majority of the Jews rejected Christ.

The real argument here is whether Jesus died for a few elect persons, or for all mankind. It can easily be shown from scripture that Jesus died for all men.
Look what Peter said in Acts speaking to the Jews who were Christ's "people".

Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

Notice that the intent of Jesus dying on the cross and rising from the dead was to turn "every one of you" from their iniquities. But did all the Jews accept Jesus? No.

And John 1:11 shows the same.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

"His own" in John 1:11 is speaking specifically of the Jews, anybody who says different is twisting and wresting scripture. The Jews were God's people, they were "his own", and Jesus indeed died for every single one of them, but many did not receive him and believe on his name. If a Calvinist wants to argue that Jesus only died for "his own" and saying "his own" only means the elect, then John 1:11 would prove that none of the elect will be saved, because they received him not.

So, the phrase "his people" in Matt 1:21 as Old Regular used it cannot mean the elect, and he is misapplying a meaning to this verse not rightly shown in scripture.

It is possible, viewing the Matthew 1:21 passage in a strictly myopic way, that you would come to the conclusion you have come to. However, that doesn't jive with the rest of the Bible.

On the one hand you have God promising Abraham that the entire world will be blessed through his offspring (Genesis 12). On the other hand you have Jesus in the "Great Shepherd Discourse" saying that He has other sheep. John 10:16 "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd." The John 10 passage contains a clear link to the Gentiles (not in the Mormon understanding).

Jesus says one flock and one shepherd. Obviously, He is the shepherd and the flock consists of more than Jews. Gentiles are also included. Therefore "his people" has to mean more than just the Jews.

Furthermore, Matthew is written to a Jewish audience so we'd expect him to highlight the Jewish aspect of Jesus' mission. But the Jewish aspect is only one aspect, it is not the whole ballgame.

So, when using a whole-Bible theology, it is obvious that the "his people" of Matthew 1 is more than just the Jews.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

Archangel, I am not a dispensationalist, but there is some truth to this doctrine. God does deal with men differently at certain times. Jesus was born under the law, later Paul spoke of the dispensation of grace. Peter said the heavens must receive Jesus until the "times" of refreshing and restitution take place.

Acts 3: 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Peter is saying here that heaven must receive Jesus until the "times" of the restitution of all things. So, at least two times or ages must take place before Jesus returns. I believe this is speaking of the church age (fullness of the Gentiles), and then the tribulation (remnant of Jews), but many disagree on exactly what this means.

But at the time Matt 1:21 was spoken, this was the time of the law, and this was a specific fulfillment of a promise made to the Jews.

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Verse 23 is speaking of Isaiah.

Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

This promise was directed to the "house of David", the Jews. This is shown again in Isaiah.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The promise was to the Jews. They are the "natural olive tree". The Gentiles are called the "wild" olive tree and are graffed in.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The Jews were (and still are) God's chosen people. The promises were to the Jews. Only because of the rejection of Christ were the Gentiles graffed into the tree.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

The purpose of the Gentiles receiving salvation is actually to provoke the Jews to jealousy. They had always been the elect of God, the chosen, but because they rejected their saviour, God has gone to the Gentiles. And now the Jews envy us (Gentiles) because we are the elect and chosen of God.

But you have to understand the times or age a verse is speaking of.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

So, I am sure you will disagree, but Matt 1:21 was a fulfillment of Isa 7:14 which was a specific promise to the Jews. Jesus was not lying when he said he was only come unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. At that specific time it was 100% true.

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Until you understand God deals with men differently at different times you will not understand this.

 

[The Archangel]

Archangel, I am not a dispensationalist, but there is some truth to this doctrine. God does deal with men differently at certain times. Jesus was born under the law, later Paul spoke of the dispensation of grace. Peter said the heavens must receive Jesus until the "times" of refreshing and restitution take place.

Acts 3: 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Peter is saying here that heaven must receive Jesus until the "times" of the restitution of all things. So, at least two times or ages must take place before Jesus returns. I believe this is speaking of the church age (fullness of the Gentiles), and then the tribulation (remnant of Jews), but many disagree on exactly what this means.

But at the time Matt 1:21 was spoken, this was the time of the law, and this was a specific fulfillment of a promise made to the Jews.

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Verse 23 is speaking of Isaiah.

Isa 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also?
14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

This promise was directed to the "house of David", the Jews. This is shown again in Isaiah.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The promise was to the Jews. They are the "natural olive tree". The Gentiles are called the "wild" olive tree and are graffed in.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

The Jews were (and still are) God's chosen people. The promises were to the Jews. Only because of the rejection of Christ were the Gentiles graffed into the tree.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

The purpose of the Gentiles receiving salvation is actually to provoke the Jews to jealousy. They had always been the elect of God, the chosen, but because the rejected their saviour, God has gone to the Gentiles. And now the Jews envy us (Gentiles) because we are the elect and chosen of God.

But you have to understand the times or age a verse is speaking of.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

So, I am sure you will disagree, but Matt 1:21 was a fulfillment of Isa 7:14 which was a specific promise to the Jews.

And yet you said nothing substantially related to my post. The issue here is not what Matt 1:21 says. The issue here is that you claimed "his people" always means the Jews. That is patently false, as I have showed through John 10.

So, your obfuscation will not get you out of this one.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

And yet you said nothing substantially related to my post. The issue here is not what Matt 1:21 says. The issue here is that you claimed "his people" always means the Jews. That is patently false, as I have showed through John 10.

So, your obfuscation will not get you out of this one.

The Archangel

No, I showed you that Matt 1:21 was a fulfillment of Isa 7:14. The following verses says that.

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

It's right there, but you will not accept it. God's people were the Jews. Notice the word "fulfilled" which means completed.

Exo 3:7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;

Exo 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

Are the children of Israel God's people? Absolutely. Did Jesus come to save "his people"? Absolutely. Did all get saved? No.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:11 shows the doctrine of Calvinism false. If Jesus only died for "his people", then none are saved because they received him not.

But you go right on and cling to your false doctrine.

 

[Rippon]

John 1:11 shows the doctrine of Calvinism false. If Jesus only died for "his people", then none are saved because they received him not.

But you go right on and cling to your false doctrine.

You really are on a seek-and-destroy mission with Calvinism as your target;aren't you? Calvinists must get you riled-up something fierce.It's like we're waving read cloths at you.

 

[Winman]

You really are on a seek-and-destroy mission with Calvinism as your target;aren't you? Calvinists must get you riled-up something fierce.It's like we're waving read cloths at you.

I believe it very serious error, that is why I oppose it. Over the years I have personally spoken to Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses's, and even Mormons and showed them from scripture why their doctrine was error. I spent six months speaking to three Mormons who came to my house several times a week, although only one of them accepted it as error. I spent years speaking to a friend who was a devout Catholic almost daily before he accepted that his church was teaching false doctrine. That was back in the 80's and he still calls me almost every weekend from Florida and I live in Connecticut. He knows I was being a true friend trying to show him error.

Believe me, I get frustrated with you Calvinists. When scripture is presented that easily contradicts it, you simply ignore it.

What I am trying to show here is that the belief that Christ only died for a few elect people is false. The Jews were Jesus's people, but the majority did not receive him.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:11 is speaking only of Jews. You would be hard pressed to find anyone who disagrees, even Calvinists. But the majority did not receive him. This proves that Jesus died for the unsaved, the unelect just as well as he died for the elect.

2 Pet 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

This verse has been discussed in several other threads but applies to the subject at hand. Peter is describing heretics here, men who are absolutely unsaved and lost who are bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

But note that Jesus "bought them". Jesus died for them just like he died for the elect. His blood was shed for their sins just as much as for you and I. But Calvinism denies this. You presented a video of James White where he went to great lengths (unsuccessfully) to explain away this verse. Why? Because he knows it absolutely contradicts Calvinism.

 

[AresMan]

You are just plain wrong. Jesus clearly came first to the Jews and it is said many times in the scriptures.

Yes, during Jesus' earthly ministry He began with the Jews, and later the Gentiles came in John chapter 12. Jesus said that salvation is "of the Jews" but later this would not be so:

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers [elect Jews and Gentiles] shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Jesus said this early in His earthly ministry. This was His plan. His ministry would start with the Jews, but then include Jews and Gentiles. After all, He was a Jew living in Jewish community.

Paul said that the Gospel is "to the Jew first and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16).

Yes, I agree that Jesus came first to the Jews. Yes, "his own" in John 1:11 could mean "the Jews" or it could mean "humanity in general."

However, Matthew 1:21 is NOT "the Jews." It is his chosen people from both the Jews and the Gentiles. The verse is referring to the effect of His atoning work on the Cross, not His earthly ministry before the Cross. John 1:11 refers to Jesus' earthly ministry. "He came unto his own." However, His salvation was through His death and resurrection, and the "his people" that He shall save are the elect Jews and Gentiles who are therefore believers.

Before Jesus ascended He commissioned the disciples to preach the Gospel "among all nations" and "to every creature" (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:47). They would begin in Jewry and spread to the Gentile nations (Acts 1:8). The Gospel was always for all nations. The gospel was always for Jew and Gentile alike. The plan was just to start with the Jews. The Gentiles were never "plan B." The fact that salvation was first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles was primarily a matter of logistics.

Jesus came to die on the Cross and rise from the dead to SAVE HIS people from their sins. The Old Testament prophesies in many places that the Gentiles would ultimately come to the Saviour to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

Jesus did not "try" to save "the Jews" and fail because they thwarted His plans, causing Him to have to resort to "plan B." Even Moses wrote that God would provoke the Jews to jealousy by another people that God would call His own (Deu 32:21). Hosea wrote that God would call a people His who were not "a people" (Hos 2:23). The Gospel has always been to the Jews and Gentiles. This is the eternal and infallible plan A.

The "his people" in Matthew 1:21 are the remnant Jews (Joel 2:31-32; Isa 1:9; 10:22; Rom 9:27-29) and the chosen Gentiles (Deu 32:21; Isa 11:10; Rom 9:25-26).

They are "even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles" (Rom 9:24).
They are "the vessels of mercy which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Rom 9:23).
They are "the remnant [of Jews] according to the election of grace" just as God "reserved [to himself] seven thousand men" who did not bow to Baal (Rom 11:4-5).
They are "the election" of Jews who were not of "the rest [who] were blinded" (Rom 11:7).
They are the Gentiles who "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Act 13:48).
They are "them which are called, both Jews and Greeks" (1 Cor 1:24).
They are the "of him [the Father] are ye in Christ Jesus" (1 Cor 1:30).
They are those "who have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph 1:7).
They are those who "are made nigh by the blood of Christ" (Eph 2:13).
They are those whom Jesus Himself "came and preached peace to... which were afar off [Gentiles], and to them that were nigh [Jews]" (Eph 2:17).
They are the ones whom God foreknew, predestined for sanctification, called, justified, and glorified (Rom 8:29-30).

If you try to make Matthew 1:21 merely "the Jews" as in "all the Jews" or "the Jews of the nation of Israel," then you must declare that the prophecy of Jesus was a colossal failure. His name would be called Jesus (meaning "Yahweh saves"). Why? Because He SHALL save "HIS people" from their sins! Whoever "His people" are, they must be saved--every one of them!

 

[The Archangel]

I believe it very serious error, that is why I oppose it. Over the years I have personally spoken to Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses's, and even Mormons and showed them from scripture why their doctrine was error. I spent six months speaking to three Mormons who came to my house several times a week, although only one of them accepted it as error. I spent years speaking to a friend who was a devout Catholic almost daily before he accepted that his church was teaching false doctrine. That was back in the 80's and he still calls me almost every weekend from Florida and I live in Connecticut. He knows I was being a true friend trying to show him error.

So then, here we have it: Calvinists are the same in your mind as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. That's dangerous ground. It is tantamount to saying Calvinists are not Christians.

Believe me, I get frustrated with you Calvinists. When scripture is presented that easily contradicts it, you simply ignore it.

Kind of like you ignoring John 10:16? "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd."

You accuse us of doing exactly what you are doing here. Perhaps you have transference issues. Sad.

The Archangel

 

[menageriekeeper]

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
Ya'll have all gone off on some rabbit trails while I was cleaning my house and baking. So in attempt to clarify where ya'll are going, I'm going to post what I THINK some of you are saying and then ya'll can correct me where I'm wrong.

Part of the arguement seems to be whether the angel was referring to the elect or to the Jews when he told Mary that Jesus would save "his people" from their sins. Winman in post number 2 gave what I believe to be the true meaning of the phrase ie, the angel is referring to the Jewish nation.(more on that in a minute)

You are wrong here "menageriekeeper". If Matthew 1:21 was speaking of the Jews then Scripture is not reliable since Jesus Christ did not save the Jews from their sins. Surely you would not accuse Scripture of not being trustworthy would you?

Actually, my personal belief is that Christ did save His people (the Jewish nation) from their sins by His sacrifice just as He saved me from my sins. Because one doesn’t’ accept the gift, doesn’t mean that it wasn’t given. It was the sin issue that Christ came to deal with. The Jews rejected Him because they had the idea that He should come as a conquering king instead of a sacrifice for sin. Not Christ’s fault. He accomplished just what He came to accomplish: to be the sacrifice for sin, for the Jew first and then unto the Gentile.

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
Then things seem to have disintegrated into an arguement over whether God intended to save the Gentiles from "the beginning" or if Christ was sent only to save the Jews.

You might try reading Genesis 3:15, the initial promise of the redeemer, thousands of years before there were Jews. Also you might read about Job. He said thousands of years before there were Jews: Job 19:25. For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

I guess you think I mean that from Adam there were a people called Jew. I do not. What I said was the linage (bloodline if that term helps you understand better) of the Jew runs all the way back to Adam, thus fulfilling the prophecy given in Gen 3:15.

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
So let me give you my view from "the beginning".

There have always been Jews, from the beginning. That is what all those endless geneologies tell us. Adam to Noah (Gen 5), Noah to Abram (gen 10-11). It was only in Abram's time that God decided that this one linage was the one He would call out as "His people" and made a covenant with Abram to that effect IF Abram agreed to it (obeyed) and followed God's commands. It wasn't until Moses' time that God began to fullfil the promises He made to Abraham and called out Abraham's decendents to make a holy people (Lev 20:26) and gave to them the law.

The above is utter nonsense. If you search the Bible you will find that the name Jew first appeared in the book of Esther, during the Babylonian captivity. Jew is derived from Judah, the tribe through which the Incarnate God would enter the world.

See above answer. It doesn’t matter what the NAME the people used to define themselves as a people of God. We call ourselves Baptists, but we’d be just as Christian if we called ourselves “Rocks”. The NAME doesn’t matter. What matters is the faith and the bloodline and both extend back to Adam.

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
. The Jewish people were intended to show God's glory to the nations of the earth. Yes, they failed and they suffered the consequences of that failure and were scattered many times from the land they were promised. It can't be denied that there are still promises yet to be fulfilled to the Jewish people. (not the direction we are going however)

Expand that to include all twelve tribes and you may have hit on the truth.

I’m not sure what you are getting at. When I use the word Jew, it includes all in the linage of Abraham, including the 12 tribes (excluding Ishmael and Esau, as God allowed the first to be excluded and the second excluded himself by selling his birthright).

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
During all these times of failure however, one thing remained the same: The Jews were still the people God intended to use to bring Christ into the world. Moses to David, David to Christ. (Matt 1) God's intention to use the Jewish people is clear. It doesn't get any clearer.

GOD did use the tribe of Judah to bring Jesus Christ into the world. Once they accomplished that task they were just like any other people.

I don’t agree, but I’m guessing this is a discussion for another thread. I do agree that Jews must be saved in the same manner as the rest of us.

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
So when Matt 1:21 tell us that Jesus will save His people from their sins following immediately after giving us His linage how then do we interpret it to mean the elect? (as meant by the Calvinists on the board)

Because the elect are HIS people. Did he save the Jews, only a few. Will he save all the elect. Of Course!

You had to go around the world to get to that point. Isn’t there a more direct route? And we will differ here because we have different definitions of what “elect” means.

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
Then to add to it is this passage from Romans:

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

What about to the Jew FIRST isn't clear?

The Gospel was presched to the Jews first. So What!!!

So why do you say the gospel was preached to the Jew first? Why do you believe God planned that out the way He obviously did?

To be continued......

 

[OldRegular]

You really are on a seek-and-destroy mission with Calvinism as your target;aren't you? Calvinists must get you riled-up something fierce.It's like we're waving read cloths at you.

Frankly Rippon I believe that a lot lf the Freewillers on this Forum are under conviction but resisting the Holy Spirit. Makes them edgy!

 

[menageriekeeper]

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
Amy said that those in the OT who wanted salvation had to become Jews for that to happen. Someone disagreed and said she was ignoring all those who were saved before the Law was given. No, she isn't. God says and has always said "if you love me keep my commandments". God may have changed some of the requirements along the way, but whatever the commandments were at that particular time in history, man was always expected to keep them and trust God for the rest.

Amy was wrong and so are you.

Was Job a Jew? NO!

I beg to differ:
Gen 46:12 And the sons of Judah; Er, and Onan, and Shelah, and Pharez, and Zerah: but Er and Onan died in the land of Canaan. And the sons of Pharez were Hezron and Hamul.
Gen 46:13 And the sons of Issachar; Tola, and Phuvah, and Job, and Shimron.

Were the inhabitants of Salem under Melchizedek Jews? NO!

Were those who responded to the preaching of Jonah Jews? NO!

Nor does it matter if they were Jewish. See my quote below.

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
By faith, Hebrews 11 teaches us, were all those from Abel to Christ's death kept from damnation. But it wasn't until Christ was resurrected that they recieved "the promise". (Hebrews 11:39-40) So far, God hasn't ignored anyone, Jew or Gentile.

Sounds OK but what was "the promise"?

The promise was redemption as accomplished by the blood of Christ. What did you think?

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
BUT HE PUTS THE JEW FIRST.

Not any longer!

But we aren’t talking about now. We are talking about Matthew chapter 1 verse 21. And at that time the Jews were commonly known as “God’s people”. It is STILL a misapplication of scripture to teach that this passage refers to the “elect”.

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
Now we can talk about Matt 15:

Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mat 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mat 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mat 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Now, who does Christ say He was sent to? It seems awfully plain to me. He was sent to the "lost sheep of Israel".

Yes, He went on and healed the woman's daughter. Why? "Great is thy faith". Even though Christ was sent to the Jews first, He still had compassion on the Gentile. You can't use this passage to support the veiw that Matt 1:21 means Christ was sent to save His "elect" (as Cals define elect)

Christ Himself just told you He was sent to the Jews!

Then explain the woman in Samaria!

What about her?

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

And HIS own people, the Jews, for the most part rejected HIM because they wanted a Messiah who would throw off the yoke of Rome!

I agree, but in Matthew 1:21 that had not yet happened. Matthew wrote as though events were unfolding. John on the other hand clearly wrote after the events in his book had occurred.

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
Here again, if Christ was come to the elect in Matt 21, then the above verse must mean that the elect received Him not. How can that be?

Heh! you got one thing correct. John 1:11 is talking about the Jews. All but a few rejected Jesus Christ and still do!

Matthew 1:21 is talking about the elect. Those chosen by GOD the Father and given to GOD the Son before the foundation of the world. All these will be brought to Salvation: John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

I see no reason to apply the passage in John to the passage in Matthew. They don’t relate. One is Matthew discussing how Christ’s birth fulfilled prophecy and the other is Christ Himself explaining the plan of salvation to, get this now, to His own people the Jews.

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
Hopefully, I've just answered you.

You get an E for effort!

Better grade than my sons have in algebra! :laugh:

 

[menageriekeeper]

Frankly Rippon I believe that a lot lf the Freewillers on this Forum are under conviction but resisting the Holy Spirit. Makes them edgy!

:laugh: Its the ones who aren't under conviction you have to worry about. :laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

Actually, my personal belief is that Christ did save His people (the Jewish nation) from their sins by His sacrifice just as He saved me from my sins. Because one doesn’t’ accept the gift, doesn’t mean that it wasn’t given. It was the sin issue that Christ came to deal with. The Jews rejected Him because they had the idea that He should come as a conquering king instead of a sacrifice for sin. Not Christ’s fault. He accomplished just what He came to accomplish: to be the sacrifice for sin, for the Jew first and then unto the Gentile.

If Jesus Christ died to save someone then they are saved otherwise HE died uselessly.

I guess you think I mean that from Adam there were a people called Jew. I do not. What I said was the linage (bloodline if that term helps you understand better) of the Jew runs all the way back to Adam, thus fulfilling the prophecy given in Gen 3:15.

See above answer. It doesn’t matter what the NAME the people used to define themselves as a people of God. We call ourselves Baptists, but we’d be just as Christian if we called ourselves “Rocks”. The NAME doesn’t matter. What matters is the faith and the bloodline and both extend back to Adam.

I’m not sure what you are getting at. When I use the word Jew, it includes all in the linage of Abraham, including the 12 tribes (excluding Ishmael and Esau, as God allowed the first to be excluded and the second excluded himself by selling his birthright).

Actually names do matter! And actually you indicated those all the way back to Adam were Jews! In fact you said:

There have always been Jews, from the beginning. That is what all those endless geneologies tell us. Adam to Noah (Gen 5), Noah to Abram (gen 10-11).

So you appear to be a bit disingenuous!

I don’t agree, but I’m guessing this is a discussion for another thread. I do agree that Jews must be saved in the same manner as the rest of us.

You got one correct!:applause:

You had to go around the world to get to that point. Isn’t there a more direct route? And we will differ here because we have different definitions of what “elect” means.

The simple statement of fact is not all the way around the world: Because the elect are HIS people. Did he save the Jews, only a few. Will he save all the elect. Of Course!

So why do you say the gospel was preached to the Jew first?

Because it was, at least after the birth of Jesus Christ. In truth the Apostle Paul states that the Gospel was preached to Abraham. Don't believe he was a Jew but he is called the father of the faithful.

Why do you believe God planned that out the way He obviously did?

Because HE is GOD and HE will bring all those HE chose before the foundation of the world to salvation.

To be continued......

 

[OldRegular]

The "his people" in Matthew 1:21 are the remnant Jews (Joel 2:31-32; Isa 1:9; 10:22; Rom 9:27-29) and the chosen Gentiles (Deu 32:21; Isa 11:10; Rom 9:25-26).

They are "even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles" (Rom 9:24).
They are "the vessels of mercy which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Rom 9:23).
They are "the remnant [of Jews] according to the election of grace" just as God "reserved [to himself] seven thousand men" who did not bow to Baal (Rom 11:4-5).
They are "the election" of Jews who were not of "the rest [who] were blinded" (Rom 11:7).
They are the Gentiles who "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Act 13:48).
They are "them which are called, both Jews and Greeks" (1 Cor 1:24).
They are the "of him [the Father] are ye in Christ Jesus" (1 Cor 1:30).
They are those "who have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph 1:7).
They are those who "are made nigh by the blood of Christ" (Eph 2:13).
They are those whom Jesus Himself "came and preached peace to... which were afar off [Gentiles], and to them that were nigh [Jews]" (Eph 2:17).
They are the ones whom God foreknew, predestined for sanctification, called, justified, and glorified (Rom 8:29-30).

If you try to make Matthew 1:21 merely "the Jews" as in "all the Jews" or "the Jews of the nation of Israel," then you must declare that the prophecy of Jesus was a colossal failure. His name would be called Jesus (meaning "Yahweh saves"). Why? Because He SHALL save "HIS people" from their sins! Whoever "His people" are, they must be saved--every one of them!

That is good sermon material AresMan!:thumbs::thumbs::jesus::godisgood: