-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Let GOD Be GOD!
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
John 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Now it is obvious to all except those totally biased that one who comes to Jesus Christ must be given to him by the Father. Further it is obvious that those who are given to Jesus Christ will be saved. Now what constraints are placed on GOD when HE gives someone to Jesus Christ. Is GOD Sovereign or is HE NOT. If HE is Sovereign then HE needs no ones approval as to who will be given to the Savior. If HE is not Sovereign then he is not God and we are all wasting our time on this Forum!
John 10:22-29
22. And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23. And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.
24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Now look at the above passage. The Jews asked Jesus Christ if HE were really the Messiah. His response in verse 25: I told you, and ye believed not:. Why didn't they believe? Because they were not given to HIM; they were not HIS sheep.
In Verses 27-29 Jesus Christ tells about HIS sheep: They follow HIM! Why do they follow HIM? Because they are HIS sheep, they were given to HIM by the Father.
Now consider John 12:37-41
37. But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38. That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39. Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40. He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Now why did they not believe on Jesus Christ. Scripture states they could not believe so that the prophecy of Isaiah would be fulfilled [Verses 38, 39]. Skandelon would have us believe that it was because GOD would not allow them to believe and Verse 40 indicates that GOD had blinded their eyes and hardened their heart.
But is that the entire story? Not at all!
The prophecy in Isaiah reads:
Isaiah 6: 9, 10
9. And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
In the Gospel of Matthew Jesus Christ states:
Matthew 13:14, 15
14. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15. For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Note that in Verse 15 Jesus Christ states: For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
This peoples heart is waxed gross?
The Apostle Paul makes the same observation in Acts 28:25-27:
25. And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
26. Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
At this point it is worth noting what the Apostle Peter has to say about the unbelieving Jews:
Acts 2:22-24
22. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23. Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Jesus Christ states: This peoples heart is waxed gross?
The Apostle Peter states: Acts 2:22-24
ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
So the question is: Did the Jews reject Jesus Christ and crucify HIM because they were hardened or because their hearts were waxed gross and they were wicked people.
John Gill perhaps says it as well as can be said.
John 12:40. He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, &c.] It is of no great moment, whether the he, who is said to blind and harden, be God or Christ, or whether the words be rendered, "it hath blinded", &c. that is, malice or wickedness; or whether they be read impersonally, "their eyes are blinded", &c. since God or Christ blind and harden not by any positive act, but by leaving and giving men up to the blindness and hardness of their hearts, and denying them the grace which could only cure them, and which they are not obliged to give; and which was the case of these Jews, so as never to be converted, or be turned even by external repentance and reformation, that they might be healed in a national way, and be preserved from national ruin, as it follows,
I believe that if one read of the Pharaoh who was forced to set Israel free they will see Scripture state 1.} that Pharaoh hardened his own heart and 2.} that his heart was hardened by GOD. The fact is that the Pharaoh was a wicked man, just like the Jews who crucified our Savior!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 1:3-7
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Below read Scandelon's total erroneous interpretation of the above passage.
Notice that in this passage from Ephesians that GOD alone is presented as taking any action. Those who are called "blessed", that means the Saints, are totally passive. Now what does GOD do for those that the Apostle calls blessed:
1. HE chose us before the foundation of the world! Elsewhere we read that HE gave us to Jesus Christ. [John 6:39] Now if HE chose us HE knew us, and HE knew us personally!
2. HE predestinated [According to Thayer that means: decide beforehand or decree from eternity.] unto adoption of sons by Jesus Christ, to whom HE had given us! That means that GOD decreed before the foundation of the world that those HE had chosen would be HIS children. We don't hear "child of GOD" used much any more but that is what HIS chosen ones are!
Also notice that it says nothing "about predestined to believe" as Scandelon claims. It states that HE predestinated unto adoption of sons by Jesus Christ. Eisegesis won't cut it!
3. HE, GOD alone, made HIS chosen ones accepted in the beloved! I love that expression. The BELOVED is the incarnate GOD, Jesus Christ and GOD made us accepted in HIM. We did not, not one of us could, that is the work of GOD alone as this passage clearly states! That is unless one wants to close his mind!
4. According to the riches of the GRACE of GOD we have the forgiveness of sins [Remember Matthew 1:21] and redemption through HIS blood.
5. All this GOD did according to the good pleasure of his will.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Below read Scandelon's total erroneous interpretation of the above passage.
Notice that in this passage from Ephesians that GOD alone is presented as taking any action. Those who are called "blessed", that means the Saints, are totally passive. Now what does GOD do for those that the Apostle calls blessed:
1. HE chose us before the foundation of the world! Elsewhere we read that HE gave us to Jesus Christ. [John 6:39] Now if HE chose us HE knew us, and HE knew us personally!
2. HE predestinated [According to Thayer that means: decide beforehand or decree from eternity.] unto adoption of sons by Jesus Christ, to whom HE had given us! That means that GOD decreed before the foundation of the world that those HE had chosen would be HIS children. We don't hear "child of GOD" used much any more but that is what HIS chosen ones are!
Also notice that it says nothing "about predestined to believe" as Scandelon claims. It states that HE predestinated unto adoption of sons by Jesus Christ. Eisegesis won't cut it!
3. HE, GOD alone, made HIS chosen ones accepted in the beloved! I love that expression. The BELOVED is the incarnate GOD, Jesus Christ and GOD made us accepted in HIM. We did not, not one of us could, that is the work of GOD alone as this passage clearly states! That is unless one wants to close his mind!
4. According to the riches of the GRACE of GOD we have the forgiveness of sins [Remember Matthew 1:21] and redemption through HIS blood.
5. All this GOD did according to the good pleasure of his will.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Ephesians 2:1-8 NASB
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Below is Skandelon's erroneous interpretation of this passage of Scripture.
Consider now the salient fact presented in the above passage. Man, without Jesus Christ, is dead. The man is obviously not physically dead otherwise the passage would be meaningless. The Scripture states [Verses 1-3] that man is dead in trespasses and sins.
In 1 Corinthians 2:14 the Apostle Paul tells us about this man:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This man who is dead in trespass and sin [Verses 1-3] is the natural man, a man who can do absolutely nothing to improve his spiritual condition, a man who is spiritually dead. It takes a supernatural act of GOD to give life, spiritual life to this man. Now consider verses 4 & 5 in the above passage. As in the passage from Ephesians 1 we see that it is GOD alone who is active in the events that transpire. It is GOD alone who makes the man who is dead in trespasses and sins made us alive together with Christ.
Summarizing the passage above we note:
1. Unregenerate man, man who is spiritually dead in trespass and sin, is given spiritual life through no merit of his own or through any effort on his part.
2. God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, effects this change as an act of His love and mercy toward those He has chosen unto salvation.
3. Man, being regenerated, is united with, or enters into a union, with Jesus Christ.
4. We are raised from spiritual death and are seated together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. That is we have been delivered .. from the power of darkness, and .. translated .. into the kingdom of his dear Son, Jesus Christ [Colossians 1:13, KJV].
5. The regenerate man receives the gift of faith by which the ‘gospel call’ becomes effective.
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,
7. in order that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Below is Skandelon's erroneous interpretation of this passage of Scripture.
Consider now the salient fact presented in the above passage. Man, without Jesus Christ, is dead. The man is obviously not physically dead otherwise the passage would be meaningless. The Scripture states [Verses 1-3] that man is dead in trespasses and sins.
In 1 Corinthians 2:14 the Apostle Paul tells us about this man:
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
This man who is dead in trespass and sin [Verses 1-3] is the natural man, a man who can do absolutely nothing to improve his spiritual condition, a man who is spiritually dead. It takes a supernatural act of GOD to give life, spiritual life to this man. Now consider verses 4 & 5 in the above passage. As in the passage from Ephesians 1 we see that it is GOD alone who is active in the events that transpire. It is GOD alone who makes the man who is dead in trespasses and sins made us alive together with Christ.
Summarizing the passage above we note:
1. Unregenerate man, man who is spiritually dead in trespass and sin, is given spiritual life through no merit of his own or through any effort on his part.
2. God, in the person of the Holy Spirit, effects this change as an act of His love and mercy toward those He has chosen unto salvation.
3. Man, being regenerated, is united with, or enters into a union, with Jesus Christ.
4. We are raised from spiritual death and are seated together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. That is we have been delivered .. from the power of darkness, and .. translated .. into the kingdom of his dear Son, Jesus Christ [Colossians 1:13, KJV].
5. The regenerate man receives the gift of faith by which the ‘gospel call’ becomes effective.
5. The regenerate man receives the gift of faith by which the ‘gospel call’ becomes effective. Wrong!!!! Salvation by grace is the gift through faith. The gift is not faith. The gospel call becomes effective when man believes. Old ground I know, but consistent uncorrected error might be accepted as truth.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I used to tell my SS class that we are all entitled to be wrong and you are. Wrong that is! The gift is faith! Man exercises that gift in conversion.
Jerome you're being silly. First things are first.To call the Calvinists at the Synod of Dort Anti-Remonstrants is like calling Christians anti-Mormons. Arminianism arose from within the ranks of orthodox Calvinism. That's why the original Arminians were rightly termed the Remonstrants.
Last edited by a moderator:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Then Paul shouldn't have said, "Faith comes by hearing," but instead, "Hearing comes by faith."
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Paul does not say in the above Scripture that faith is not a gift. Ephesians 2:8 states that faith is a gift! Scripture does not contradict itself. You can believe that or not, just as you choose using your "vaunted Freewill".
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Sure faith is a gift. It's a gift that cometh through hearing the Holy Spirit wrought gospel truth.
IMO the gift of Eph 2:8 is indeed faith; but it is not the personal faith of man which does come by hearing, for the gift is the Faith of Christ and salvation made possible by it.
Galatians 2:16 (King James Version)
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:23 (King James Version)
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
What faith came after the law??? It was not the personal faith of man because that had been around long before the law.
The "faith which should afterwards be revealed" was and is the Faith of Christ!
If not for the Faith of Christ demonstrated by His submission to death, we would all still be deep in sin and bound for Hell.
Galatians 2:16 (King James Version)
16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:23 (King James Version)
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
What faith came after the law??? It was not the personal faith of man because that had been around long before the law.
The "faith which should afterwards be revealed" was and is the Faith of Christ!
If not for the Faith of Christ demonstrated by His submission to death, we would all still be deep in sin and bound for Hell.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
I know you were just being pushy here, but you made me wonder.
Were you chosen to believe in Calvinism, or is Calvanistic belief a choice you have made of your own study?
olegig, you are beginning to be interesting.
if you were itutut, as some here seem to say you are, I did find itutut to be interesting in his posts.:type:
Last edited by a moderator:
skandelon and winman:
I read your posts further back.
Here's how you come across (to me, at least), and not only you, but some more on this board:
you're a liar and you're peddling a pack of lies, but, I love you, brother.
Understand, I am not calling you liars in this post.
I am saying that a discussion, as opposed to a debate, and a written discussion, at that, has its tempo set at the beginning posts, and both of you, your beginning posts regarding the doctrines of Calvinism, and the Doctrine of Grace, as some Baptists, including myself, were set on that tempo by insinuation, or by implications of what you said.
You, winman, were even told by someone else that you are implying Calvinists and DoG's were unsaved people.
So, unless you can really put your money where your mouths are......
I read your posts further back.
Here's how you come across (to me, at least), and not only you, but some more on this board:
you're a liar and you're peddling a pack of lies, but, I love you, brother.
Understand, I am not calling you liars in this post.
I am saying that a discussion, as opposed to a debate, and a written discussion, at that, has its tempo set at the beginning posts, and both of you, your beginning posts regarding the doctrines of Calvinism, and the Doctrine of Grace, as some Baptists, including myself, were set on that tempo by insinuation, or by implications of what you said.
You, winman, were even told by someone else that you are implying Calvinists and DoG's were unsaved people.
So, unless you can really put your money where your mouths are......
Well thank you; but I have no idea who itutut is.
What I wrote in the post you responded to is from something I wrote on one of the old MSN boards several years ago.
I googled "olegig" and came up with this:
http://mountbiblicalsense.lefora.com/2004/05/13/faith-which-faith-by-olegig/
I have no idea how it got there, I suppose someone c&p it (I never have capitalized 'ole'); but it just goes to show how one's words endure.
Please note the date at the bottom of the writing from the link above. Would that preceded this itutut fellow?
Sometimes I think it is easier to brand a fellow with a name and insinuate his theology a bit shady than to respond to his reasoning.
However, I don't know how long I will stay. I was attracted by the name "Baptist" in the site name; but I find very little of the kind of "Baptist" I am familiar with here.
Last edited by a moderator:
no, no, no, sir, I am not insinuating anything against you.
my apologies if it came across that way.
I was genuinely interested in what you said because I too believe that our salvation really is of the "faith OF Christ", and the obedience of Christ.
As for itutut, I was really curious as to whether he were you, or you were he, in a past BB life.
no offense meant there.
If you read the post before mine you might understand why I posted about the Gomarists:laugh:
I apologize, as clearly your knowledge of Dutch internecine religious squabbles is far superior to mine:
I apologize, as clearly your knowledge of Dutch internecine religious squabbles is far superior to mine:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Pinoy, with all due respect you will need to provide specific quotes where I appear to say these things. You disagree with me as much as I disagree with you. The only difference I have seen thus far in our discussions is that you call me a "lying devil" and I have called you my brother in Christ whom I pray for and love. You may take that as being disingenuous, but I and the Lord know my heart. As I have testified, two of my very best friends are Calvinistic. I LOVE them DEARLY and would gladly give my life to save either one of them. In fact, my oldest brother is Calvinistic as well. I don't harbor near the ill will as you presume I do against Calvinistic believers. No more so than Paul does for the Israelites of his day who don't believe his teachings.