Let GOD Be GOD!

[The Archangel]

The word was in the very documents the KJV was translated from. And men at that time were fluent in these languages.

I personally believe that the many promises of God to preserve the scriptures have been kept. If you want to argue that some other version other than the KJV is the true word of God, I will at least give you a listen, although I studied it quite extensively many years ago and it would be hard to change my mind.

I simply believe God is absolutely capable of keeping his word and did.

And I would have a great difficulty if I believed as you do that there is no "perfect version". How do you have faith in something you believe is corrupt? As Olegig asked, how do you know which parts are true and which aren't? This would absolutely destroy faith.

If you want to talk about "perfect" versions, then go to the Greek and Hebrew. So, translations--while not perfect--are good and quite sufficient. However, there are nuances, etc. that don't come through any translation.

If there is a discrepancy in any translation, or if you want to see the nuance in the original language(s), go to the original.

Unfortunately, you and Olegig (and the KJV only people) want to say the KJV has more authority (textually speaking) than the originals themselves. This is ludicrous.

Certainly one can prefer the KJV, but one cannot state that it is the only true preservation of God's word.

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

If you want to talk about "perfect" versions, then go to the Greek and Hebrew. So, translations--while not perfect--are good and quite sufficient. However, there are nuances, etc. that don't come through any translation.

If there is a discrepancy in any translation, or if you want to see the nuance in the original language(s), go to the original.

Unfortunately, you and Olegig (and the KJV only people) want to say the KJV has more authority (textually speaking) than the originals themselves. This is ludicrous.

Certainly one can prefer the KJV, but one cannot state that it is the only true preservation of God's word.

The Archangel

So everybody needs to learn ancient Greek and Hebrew? God is hiding his word from the mass of humanity?

Amazing, you would be the first to argue that God is sovereign and directing the affairs of men, but you cannot believe that God determined to publish the scriptures in English, just as England became the most powerful and widespread empire in the world, taking the word of God to every continent. And later America followed and has been the greatest source of missionaries the world has ever known.

You can't see the hand of God there? I can.

It's funny what you have faith in, and what you do not.

I would not sit in a church where the pastor constantly casts doubt on God's word. I do not say that to insult you, but we are talking about life and death here, where a person spends eternity. I want to be positive about what I believe in, not full of doubt. And I happen to believe God wants us to be assured and secure in his Word.

 

[The Archangel]

So everybody needs to learn ancient Greek and Hebrew? God is hiding his word from the mass of humanity?

Again, this is not what I said and you know it. The fact remains that the Greek and Hebrew are the original.

As I said before: The modern translations are quite good and are sufficient. However, they are not perfect and no translation is.

Amazing, you would be the first to argue that God is sovereign and directing the affairs of men, but you cannot believe that God determined to publish the scriptures in English, just as England became the most powerful and widespread empire in the world, taking the word of God to every continent. And later America followed and has been the greatest source of missionaries the world has ever known.

You can't see the hand of God there? I can.

The problem with this statement is that the KJV was not the first English translation.

Besides, English, while very widespread, is not the "world's" language. If you were working to translate the Bible into an African dialect, where would you start from? From the Greek and Hebrew, not the KJV.

It's funny what you have faith in, and what you do not.

Not in the least. Rather, it is funny how you attempt to put words into the mouths of people with whom you disagree. No, it's not funny...it's sad.

I would not sit in a church where the pastor constantly casts doubt on God's word. I do not say that to insult you, but we are talking about life and death here, where a person spends eternity. I want to be positive about what I believe in, not full of doubt. And I happen to believe God wants us to be assured and secure in his Word.

The fallacy here is that you thing the KJV is "God's Word" as opposed to other translations. I prefer the ESV (again, it isn't perfect) and I refer to that as "God's Word," something you'd reject because it isn't KJV.

Furthermore, you've never sat in "my" church. You simply have no idea what I do and do not say. Your assumptions of me show, more than ever, that you are living in your own "Winman-land." You are so sure your assumptions about people are correct. That is the embodiment of narcissistic hubris.

The KJV is not a life-and-death issue. That you think it is is quite revealing.

The Archangel

 

[asterisktom]

So everybody needs to learn ancient Greek and Hebrew? God is hiding his word from the mass of humanity?

So everybody needs to learn English? If what you write is true then God has been hiding his word from the mass of humanity already - and for ages, too - since only a minority of people knew/know English.

 

[Winman]

So everybody needs to learn English? If what you write is true then God has been hiding his word from the mass of humanity already - and for ages, too - since only a minority of people knew/know English.

Where have you been? Did you watch the Olympics? English is spoken nearly everywhere in the world. It is called the international language, and is becoming more so every day.

Just a coincidence though. :laugh:

 

[asterisktom]

Where have you been? Did you watch the Olympics? English is spoken nearly everywhere in the world. It is called the international language, and is becoming more so every day.

Just a coincidence though. :laugh:

You need to get out more. Not everyone speaks English by a long, long shot. We go down to Mexico and Guatemala and the majority there do not have clue with English - let alone the archaic variant of KJV English.

Aide from this, think of all the generations previous, when the ratio of English speakers was even less.

Are you sure you want to still stand by what you said?

 

[Winman]

You need to get out more. Not everyone speaks English by a long, long shot. We go down to Mexico and Guatemala and the majority there do not have clue with English - let alone the archaic variant of KJV English.

Aide from this, think of all the generations previous, when the ratio of English speakers was even less.

Are you sure you want to still stand by what you said?

I do stand by what I said. Did you know at the time of Christ the entire world's population was estimated at around 200 million? Today there are probably a billion Christians (or at least those that claim to be Christians) in the world. Remember, only a minority will be saved.

Today there are millions of Christians in Asia and Africa. Why? Primarily because of English speaking Christians who took the gospel there. They train pastors in English, but then also translate the scriptures into the native language. But English has been the primary conveyance of the scriptures for centuries.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This scripture is being fulfilled before your very eyes and you are oblivious to it.

 

[Rippon]

You think your doctrine honors God but does not. It actually blames God for sin and releases man from responsibility.

Your sentiments are sinfully stupid and irresponsible. You post untrue things to propound your theories and demean the doctrine of grace. You are disgraceful.

 

[The Archangel]

Where have you been? Did you watch the Olympics? English is spoken nearly everywhere in the world. It is called the international language, and is becoming more so every day.

Just a coincidence though. :laugh:

Mmm. About the Olympics. The official "Olympic Language" is French and English, not English alone.

French and English are the official languages of the Olympic Movement. The other language used at each Olympic Games is the language of the host country. Every proclamation (such as the announcement of each country during the parade of nations in the opening ceremony) is spoken in these three languages, or the main two depending on whether the host country is an English or French speaking country (Source)

Looks like English is not so "universal" after all.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Your sentiments are sinfully stupid and irresponsible. You post untrue things to propound your theories and demean the doctrine of grace. You are disgrace.

I just had to say--though this language is really incordial--that it made me laugh out loud.

Rip, my friend, I'd encourage you to be a bit more graceful in your posts.

Blessings, (and thanks for the laugh!)

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

I do stand by what I said. Did you know at the time of Christ the entire world's population was estimated at around 200 million? Today there are probably a billion Christians (or at least those that claim to be Christians) in the world. Remember, only a minority will be saved.

Today there are millions of Christians in Asia and Africa. Why? Primarily because of English speaking Christians who took the gospel there. They train pastors in English, but then also translate the scriptures into the native language. But English has been the primary conveyance of the scriptures for centuries.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This scripture is being fulfilled before your very eyes and you are oblivious to it.

Once again, you are showing your ignorance. Many indigenous pastors are trained, that is true. But, they are trained in their native language, not English. The SBC missionaries that go to France or a Spanish-speaking Latin-American country spend their first year or two attending language school so they can speak the language of the land they are going to.

So, like the ostrich who buries his head in the sand to avoid reality, you can persist in your ignorance. But, you do so at your own risk.

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

I do stand by what I said. Did you know at the time of Christ the entire world's population was estimated at around 200 million? Today there are probably a billion Christians (or at least those that claim to be Christians) in the world. Remember, only a minority will be saved.

Today there are millions of Christians in Asia and Africa. Why? Primarily because of English speaking Christians who took the gospel there. They train pastors in English, but then also translate the scriptures into the native language. But English has been the primary conveyance of the scriptures for centuries.

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

This scripture is being fulfilled before your very eyes and you are oblivious to it.

So......the Gospel has to be in the King's English or it isn't the Gospel? Is that what you're saying here?

The Archangel

 

[Winman]

So......the Gospel has to be in the King's English or it isn't the Gospel? Is that what you're saying here?

The Archangel

I'm saying that God already chose the King's English. It is not coincidence that England came to it's greatest power at the same time the scriptures were translated into English. Here is one paragraph from Wiki:

The British Empire comprised the dominions, colonies, protectorates, mandates, and other territories ruled or administered by the United Kingdom, that had originated with the overseas colonies and trading posts established by England in the late 16th and early 17th centuries. At its height it was the largest empire in history and, for over a century, was the foremost global power. By 1922, the British Empire held sway over a population of about 458 million people, one-quarter of the world's population,[1] and covered more than 13,000,000 square miles (33,670,000 km2): approximately a quarter of the Earth's total land area.[2] As a result, its political, linguistic and cultural legacy is widespread. At the peak of its power, it was often said that "the sun never sets on the British Empire" because its span across the globe ensured that the sun was always shining on at least one of its numerous territories.

The principle Bible throughout this time of the British empire was the King James Version. That is historical fact whether you like it or not. And later when America began sending missionaries throughout the world, the priniciple Bible they carried was the KJV.

Now, as a Calvinist, don't you believe this was determined by God?

 

[asterisktom]

This scripture is being fulfilled before your very eyes and you are oblivious to it.

Bye... Wasting my time here with you.

I remember now why I quit conversing with you earlier - it quickly devolves into ad hominems.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by Winman

Some men love darkness, they love sin. They know Jesus is going to tell them to turn from sin and they don't want to do that. They enjoy the temporary pleasures and rewards of sin. They also do not want to be reproved or convicted for their sin. They are proud, believing themselves good and do not want to accept that their deeds are evil.

Before you were saved did you sin? Did you love to sin? I must assume that you did since Scripture states as much! So what made you accept Jesus Christ?

Winman

You have not responded to my questions above but that is OK. I will add one additional question:

What part did the Grace of GOD play in your free will decision to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior?

 

[AresMan]

Even if the English is a completely accurate translation of the original languages, if discrepancies exist about what the English is communicating, should one not go to the original languages to see which understanding of the same English is correct?

Even definitions of English words change over time, such as let, prevent, etc.

Where the KJV has the word hell, the modern understanding would be a place of fiery punishment. However, this is not always the case. In fact, in the Old Testament, sheol hardly ever refers to the place of punishment.

 

[Winman]

What part did the Grace of GOD play in your free will decision to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior?

It was through God's gracious gift of his Word that I learned who the true God is that created all the world in six days. It was through God's Word that I learned of Jesus who was the Word made flesh who came and died on the cross for my sins, and the sins of the whole world and rose again. It was preaching from the scriptures that convicted me I was a lost sinner in peril of everlasting punishment. And it was the scriptures that showed me I could trust in Christ and have all my sins forgiven.

All of that was the work and grace of God.

 

[AresMan]

Winman

You have not responded to my questions above but that is OK. I will add one additional question:

What part did the Grace of GOD play in your free will decision to believe in Jesus Christ as Savior?

The overriding, dominant one.

 

[Winman]

Even if the English is a completely accurate translation of the original languages, if discrepancies exist about what the English is communicating, should one not go to the original languages to see which understanding of the same English is correct?

Even definitions of English words change over time, such as let, prevent, etc.

Where the KJV has the word hell, the modern understanding would be a place of fiery punishment. However, this is not always the case. In fact, in the Old Testament, sheol hardly ever refers to the place of punishment.

I've never had that much difficulty understanding the KJV. Just because English changes over time is not reason to change the scriptures, anyone who does even a little study can understand them properly.

Let me ask you, do college Physics books dumb themselves down just so anyone can understand them? Should we drop courses in sciences because the concepts or terms are difficult for people to learn?

Should we have "Medicine for Dummies" for physicians? I sure wouldn't want a doctor like that operating on me. :tongue3:

 

[AresMan]

I've never had that much difficulty understanding the KJV. Just because English changes over time is not reason to change the scriptures, anyone who does even a little study can understand them properly.

Let me ask you, do college Physics books dumb themselves down just so anyone can understand them? Should we drop courses in sciences because the concepts or terms are difficult for people to learn?

Should we have "Medicine for Dummies" for physicians? I sure wouldn't want a doctor like that operating on me. :tongue3:

Studying the Greek and Hebrew is "dumbing down"?

I said nothing about other English translations. I myself prefer the KJV and I use it exclusively as the Word of God in English. You should have noticed by now that I only quote from the KJV. However, I will definitely use the Greek and Hebrew to prove my understanding of the English over a faulty one.