Let GOD Be GOD!

[olegig]

The basis for questioning the KJV translation is the Greek and Hebrew original.

Here I would like to express my appreciation for your aid in setting all us folks who have not invested the time to be versed in Greek and Hebrew straight.

I'd agree one is saved at the moment of belief, but that has no bearing on our discussion.

Your right for we have been dancing around this thing for a while.
Perhaps you would address the following:

Your correct, I misspoke. The scripture simply states "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed".
I stated incorrectly what the passage does not, and your correction is well taken.

But let us consider other things the passage does not say:
--It does not say one has to be ordained to believe.
--It does not say there are those who are not ordained that cannot believe.
--It does not say that these folks were ordained before the foundation of the world.
--And it does not say that everyone who is ordained will believe.

That's not what I'm saying. Sure the Gospel is available to the Gentiles. But this text is speaking of individuals, not the "Nation of Gentiles."

Well, IMO, not exactly, for in the big picture the text does have a national flavor to it. (Don't know if this is brought out in the Greek or not.)

We see in Acts 7 the Jews at Jerusalem rejection of Jesus Christ as presented by Stephen, then here in Acts 13 the Jews of Asia Minor reject Jesus Christ as presented by Paul, and lastly the Jews of Europe reject Jesus Christ in Acts 18:6. Then in Acts 28:28 it is final and no longer is the Gospel preached to the Jew first.

Therefore, even though individuals are spoken of, it is yet another turning point when God turned from the Jew to the Gentile to be His messengers to the world on a national level.

This simply isn't so. The Greek indicates that in this text "Appointment" is something that happened in the past (the perfect tense) and "Appointment" is done by an outside force, not the subject acting on himself or herself (the passive voice).

Using which ever word or language you prefer, I still see nothing indicating that whatever took place happened in eternity past and not real time.

So, it is clear that the acting upon produced something--believers. There's no way to get around that.

I believe everyone who comes to God does so because God first called them.
But this is not the heart of the matter, for the heart of the matter is does God call them because in eternity past He decreed that they would be saved, or does God call them because through His foreknowledge in real time He knows they will respond.

In Gen 3:9 did call to Adam because God did not know where Adam was hiding?
Or did God call to the man thus giving man a chance to respond?

So, if someone tells you "you're wrong" they are condescending. That's what you are saying in essence. So, I guess you'll be a truth unto yourself.

Well, not exactly a truth unto myself for I do strongly believe in the Higher Authority of God and His Word.
That is my truth; however I do see your point that someone who has been taught they do not have the Word of God available to them would need strong guidance and an authoritative figure to show them the proper way.

You are accepting your own interpretation over the clear meaning of the text.

No, I am accepting my interpretation of the Word over your interpretation of the Greek.

 

[Winman]

Studying the Greek and Hebrew is "dumbing down"?

I said nothing about other English translations. I myself prefer the KJV and I use it exclusively as the Word of God in English. You should have noticed by now that I only quote from the KJV. However, I will definitely use the Greek and Hebrew to prove my understanding of the English over a faulty one.

You are the one who attacked the KJV English:

Even if the English is a completely accurate translation of the original languages, if discrepancies exist about what the English is communicating, should one not go to the original languages to see which understanding of the same English is correct?

Even definitions of English words change over time, such as let, prevent, etc.

Where the KJV has the word hell, the modern understanding would be a place of fiery punishment. However, this is not always the case. In fact, in the Old Testament, sheol hardly ever refers to the place of punishment.

You ask about discrepancies in what the English is communicating. Well, when you have two people that speak English you can have an intelligent debate on what the true meaning is.

Now, what do you do with Greek? Very few people know Greek. Am I supposed to accept your word because you declare yourself a Greek scholar? How do I know if that's true or not, you may be terrible at Greek for all I know.

I have seen a few here who know Greek disagree on the true interpretation of a verse or passage, I see no great advantage to the Greek. TC Greek did not agree with Archangel on I believe it was 1 John 5:1 and several other verses if I recall correctly. John of Japan disagreed with Archangel as well.

Where is the great advantage here?

 

[OldRegular]

All of that was the work and grace of God.

Then why doesn't that Grace work for all?

 

[Winman]

Then why doesn't that Grace work for all?

Because some men love sin. Why do gangsters sell drugs that kill or addict many young people? Why do they trap young women in prostitution?

Simple. MONEY. They love the wealth and power it brings. They don't have to work a regular job like the rest of us and they live in total pleasure.

Now, you try preaching to a guy like this and he is liable to shoot you. He doesn't want to hear it. He doesn't want anybody to tell him he is doing wrong. And there is no way you are going to make him stop. He likes what he is doing because he enjoys the temporary wealth and pleasure it brings.

Old Regular, you know this already, why do you act as if you don't understand? I understood this when I was a boy (and so did you).

 

[OldRegular]

Original question by OldRegular
Then why doesn't that Grace work for all?

Because some men love sin. Why do gangsters sell drugs that kill or addict many young people? Why do they trap young women in prostitution?

Simple. MONEY. They love the wealth and power it brings. They don't have to work a regular job like the rest of us and they live in total pleasure.

Now, you try preaching to a guy like this and he is liable to shoot you. He doesn't want to hear it. He doesn't want anybody to tell him he is doing wrong. And there is no way you are going to make him stop. He likes what he is doing because he enjoys the temporary wealth and pleasure it brings.

Old Regular, you know this already, why do you act as if you don't understand? I understood this when I was a boy (and so did you).

Then why doesn't GOD exercise a little more GRACE on those who resist. Does HE only give an equal measure to all. If HE desires that all be saved why doesn't HE give more GRACE to those who need it.

 

[olegig]

Then why doesn't GOD exercise a little more GRACE on those who resist. Does HE only give an equal measure to all. If HE desires that all be saved why doesn't HE give more GRACE to those who need it.

Because God knows the hearts of all men from the foundation of the world.

Acts 1:24 (King James Version)
24And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

 

[Winman]

Then why doesn't GOD exercise a little more GRACE on those who resist. Does HE only give an equal measure to all. If HE desires that all be saved why doesn't HE give more GRACE to those who need it.

That's actually a good question, but there is no way I can answer it.

I suppose God could save everyone. He could send the hardest sinner down to hell for a day, that probably would make anyone repent. We see the rich man in Luke 16 who died and went to hell, I believe he clearly repented and asked Abraham to send someone to warn his 5 brothers.

But God has given us this lifetime to either believe in Jesus or not. And God in his judgement knows how much grace he will show to an unrepentent sinner and how much he will not. I do believe the scriptures show that at a certain point a person can cross the line with God. The scriptures say God gave Jezebel space to repent but she would not.

Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

I believe God does give every man an opportunity to repent and accept Christ, but there is a point where a person can cross the line.

 

[The Archangel]

That's actually a good question, but there is no way I can answer it.

I suppose God could save everyone. He could send the hardest sinner down to hell for a day, that probably would make anyone repent. We see the rich man in Luke 16 who died and went to hell, I believe he clearly repented and asked Abraham to send someone to warn his 5 brothers.

But God has given us this lifetime to either believe in Jesus or not. And God in his judgement knows how much grace he will show to an unrepentent sinner and how much he will not. I do believe the scriptures show that at a certain point a person can cross the line with God. The scriptures say God gave Jezebel space to repent but she would not.

Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

I believe God does give every man an opportunity to repent and accept Christ, but there is a point where a person can cross the line.

I just want to point out that Jezebel is a metaphor here. The Revelation text is not referring to the Jezebel who was married to Ahab.

The Archangel

 

[OldRegular]

I just want to point out that Jezebel is a metaphor here. The Revelation text is not referring to the Jezebel who was married to Ahab.

The Archangel

You beat me to it!

 

[OldRegular]

That's actually a good question, but there is no way I can answer it.

I suppose God could save everyone. He could send the hardest sinner down to hell for a day, that probably would make anyone repent. We see the rich man in Luke 16 who died and went to hell, I believe he clearly repented and asked Abraham to send someone to warn his 5 brothers.

But God has given us this lifetime to either believe in Jesus or not. And God in his judgement knows how much grace he will show to an unrepentent sinner and how much he will not. I do believe the scriptures show that at a certain point a person can cross the line with God. The scriptures say God gave Jezebel space to repent but she would not.

Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

I believe God does give every man an opportunity to repent and accept Christ, but there is a point where a person can cross the line.

So then because GOD does not give everyone the GRACE that they require to bring them to faith in Jesus Christ as Savior HE is deliberately leaving some men in their fallen state? Is that what you are saying or am I misunderstanding you? If so please clarify!

 

[olegig]

I just want to point out that Jezebel is a metaphor here. The Revelation text is not referring to the Jezebel who was married to Ahab.

You beat me to it!

That's an interesting concept.
How does one tell what is a metaphor and what is not?
Is there a standard to go by, or is it left up to each individuals personal choice and feeling?

If there is a standard, could either one of you spell it out so all Christiandom can be on the same page.

If it is a personal choice or feeling, then on what basis does one make these choices?

 

[DHK]

That's an interesting concept.
How does one tell what is a metaphor and what is not?
Is there a standard to go by, or is it left up to each individuals personal choice and feeling?

Isn't it obvious that the metaphor in question here is that anyone called a "Jezebel" is one that wears excessive makeup.

2 Kings 9:30 And when Jehu was come to Jezreel, Jezebel heard of it; and she painted her face, and tired her head, and looked out at a window.

 

[The Archangel]

That's an interesting concept.
How does one tell what is a metaphor and what is not?
Is there a standard to go by, or is it left up to each individuals personal choice and feeling?

If there is a standard, could either one of you spell it out so all Christiandom can be on the same page.

If it is a personal choice or feeling, then on what basis does one make these choices?

It is based, in part, on context, genre of literature, etc. Revelation is apocalyptic literature and that particular genre is marked by very pictorial language. For instance, Revelation 5 reports Jesus standing, looking as a lamb that had been slain. Now, we don't really expect Jesus to have sheep horns, be covered in wool, and saying "baaah," do we? No, of course not. This is but one example of the highly pictorial language.

Furthermore, in the context of the entire passage, Jezebel is not seen as the historical Jezebel (as in the one married to Ahab).

Revelation 2:18-29

To the Church in Thyatira

18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: ‘The words of the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and whose feet are like burnished bronze.
19 “‘I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first. 20 But I have this against you, that you tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess and is teaching and seducing my servants to practice sexual immorality and to eat food sacrificed to idols. 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. 24 But to the rest of you in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not learned what some call the deep things of Satan, to you I say, I do not lay on you any other burden. 25 Only hold fast what you have until I come. 26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27 and he will rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star. 29 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

The church is said to be "tolerating" Jezebel. By the time this letter was written, Jezebel had been dead for quite some time. This person whom the metaphor of Jezebel had been applied was leading people in the church astray. I doubt the historical Jezebel had ever visited Thyatira. Even if she did, though, she would have visited before the church was founded. After all, Ahab (whom Jezebel was married to) ruled the Northern Kingdom of Israel from 875-853 BC. The letter to the church at Thyatira was written sometime in the 90s AD. So, that's nearly 1,000 years.

Not to mention there are many other metaphors in this letter, as there are in all the letters to the seven churches.

Sometimes a metaphor is introduced by something in the text. When Jesus laments over Jerusalem He says "I longed to gather...like a hen gathers her chicks." Jesus is not calling Himself a hen. The work like introduces a simile, therefore the hen is metaphorical.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[olegig]

It is based, in part, on context, genre of literature, etc. Revelation is apocalyptic literature and that particular genre is marked by very pictorial language. For instance, Revelation 5 reports Jesus standing, looking as a lamb that had been slain. Now, we don't really expect Jesus to have sheep horns, be covered in wool, and saying "baaah," do we? No, of course not. This is but one example of the highly pictorial language.

Why of course not. That would be about as hard to believe as some young Jewish girl becoming pregnant before human intercourse. Or some mere human coming back from the dead! Who ever heard of such a thing!

 

[The Archangel]

Why of course not. That would be about as hard to believe as some young Jewish girl becoming pregnant before human intercourse. Or some mere human coming back from the dead! Who ever heard of such a thing!

Your sarcasm is completely out of place and very unappreciated. You asked a question and I gave you an answer.

The Archangel

 

[olegig]

Your sarcasm is completely out of place and very unappreciated. You asked a question and I gave you an answer.

Yes, but your answer was subjective, basically leaving it up to each individual to decide for themselves the degree of metaphor.
I asked for a definitive measure we can show the world.

My response was one of a non-believer (metaphorically speaking) who is seeking some truth.
The world is asking Christians how can we take any of the Bible literally if you, yourself don't take it all literally?

 

[The Archangel]

Yes, but your answer was subjective, basically leaving it up to each individual to decide for themselves the degree of metaphor.
I asked for a definitive measure we can show the world.

My response was one of a non-believer (metaphorically speaking) who is seeking some truth.
The world is asking Christians how can we take any of the Bible literally if you, yourself don't take it all literally?

Taking it literally means taking the author's main point as the main point. John is not here referring to the historical Jezebel, this much is painfully obvious.

Read this, if you will, and you'll better understand: Expositional Preaching

You'll need to click through the slide show, but it is worth it.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[olegig]

The fact remains that the Greek and Hebrew are the original.

Over night I was just wondering. Since you seem to have in your possession the papers upon which Moses' and Paul's words were first written, would you consider pricing them for sale?

I know of a few museums that would love to have the "originals" and would pay a very fair price.
Are they still in pretty good condition?

 

[The Archangel]

Over night I was just wondering. Since you seem to have in your possession the papers upon which Moses' and Paul's words were first written, would you consider pricing them for sale?

I know of a few museums that would love to have the "originals" and would pay a very fair price.
Are they still in pretty good condition?

Again, we have something sarcastic and uncalled for. You were once refreshing to talk to. I am rethinking that now.

The Archangel

 

[olegig]

Taking it literally means taking the author's main point as the main point. John is not here referring to the historical Jezebel, this much is painfully obvious.

Oh, I have not said or held the position that John is referring to the historical Jezebel and arguing in that light is only a strawman.

However the fact still remains that God did give that Jezebel space to repent.

IMO "taking the book of the Revelation" literally means in the future there is going to be 7yrs of Great Tribulation, an antichrist who forces everyone to take a mark, and there is going to be a future physical Millennial Kingdom on earth with the Lord Jesus Christ physically ruling and reigning from the throne of David in Jerusalem.

So again, I ask:
If one takes part of the scriptures metaphorically, then how does one decide what is literal and what is metaphor?
What is the objective measure that we can tell the world so they can follow in a sensible manner without having to look to some other man for guidance?