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Piper teaches that some Calvinists might not be Born Again.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Feb 23, 2010.

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  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I posted this for 2 reasons:

    (1) It's a good reminder for all of us to treat each other in brotherly love.

    (2) I would like to explore the idea that someone might be able to "embrace" Calvinism but not first be regenerated.

    How does someone even give mental assent to something like Calvinism...to such a degree they are willing to teach it, debate it, lose a job over it (as I did) and get emotional over it while still in a state of being Totally Depraved?

    Please explain what you think.
     
    #1 Skandelon, Feb 23, 2010
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    People "embrace" all sorts of Biblical ideas without being saved. I know a number of Arminians who fit the bill. :)
     
    #2 annsni, Feb 23, 2010
  3. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    Seems that he is declaring that since Calvinism rest on such a high intellectual plane it is attractive to other intellectuals who may not be of the elect. They are simply drawn to the supposed logic of the system. To me this is a position of pure arrogance. In fact, based on what I just read, it seems that Piper, himself, is a bit on the arrogant side. I wonder what he really thinks about those of us who are not five pointers?
     
    #3 sag38, Feb 23, 2010
  4. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    I think Ann may have just answered my last question. I hope that's not what she meant. Then again I don't consider myself to be Armenian. I'm actually very comfortable being a hybrid. More so, I'm thankful to be a Christian.
     
    #4 sag38, Feb 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 23, 2010
  5. Theopolis

    Theopolis New Member

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    I thought that would be obvious.
    Embracing a system (no matter what the system might be) doesn't make a person born again. God alone makes a person born again (regenerated).
     
    #5 Theopolis, Feb 23, 2010
  6. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    Amen Theo!
     
    #6 sag38, Feb 23, 2010
  7. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    "There is an orthodox as well as a heterodox road to hell, and the devil knows how to handle Calvinists quite as well as Arminians. No pale of any Church can insure salvation, no form of doctrine can guarantee to us eternal life. "Ye must be born again"" —Charles Spurgeon, Nothing But Leaves
     
    #7 Jerome, Feb 23, 2010
  8. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Oh, five points are not enough for Piper.

    Here he decrees a sixth and a seventh point:
     
    #8 Jerome, Feb 23, 2010
  9. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    What I meant was whatever belief system someone has, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're saved. So what I'm saying is that just because I believe in the doctrine of grace doesn't guarantee that I'm saved. It's not the belief in a system that saves us but belief in Jesus Christ. But there are those who claim to be Christians who believe in all of the different systems (not just Calvinism) who are just not saved. So yes, there are Calvinists who are not saved. There are Arminians not saved. There are Baptists who are not saved. It's not the belief system that makes one saved or unsaved but faith in Jesus.
     
    #9 annsni, Feb 23, 2010
  10. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Yeah - that. LOL
     
    #10 annsni, Feb 23, 2010
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I think we all agree that salvation doesn't come through belief in a doctrinal system. But, the question I posed was with regard to the work of regeneration. Calvinists go to great links to talk about man's inability to do ANYTHING prior to being made alive. I'm just wondering how a "dead" man affirms, teaches, debates and passionately ascribes to any Christian system while still being "dead?" People talk about "mental assent" versus true saving faith, but even the concept of "mental assent" itself seems out of reach for what the Calvinists refer to as those who are "totally depraved."

    I'm not arguing here, I'm just seeking clarity on different opinions on this subject. What exactly can a spiritually dead man do and what "can't" he do?
     
    #11 Skandelon, Feb 23, 2010
  12. sag38

    sag38 Active Member

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    One can teach the Bible to an athiest until he or she can spout off all the right answers and still be lost. I'm afraid there are many who have a head knowledge of God but do not know Him personally.
     
    #12 sag38, Feb 23, 2010
  13. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't disagree...but let me press this further.

    If someone is "spiritually dead" and an enemy of God, how does he come to a point that he would even "spout" the right answers or passionately claim to believe truth? Shouldn't he be repulsed by these things? Shouldn't he not even be able to "see, hear, or understand" them?
     
    #13 Skandelon, Feb 23, 2010
  14. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    They are spiritually dead and cannot get what their head knows into their hearts. As I said elsewhere, I have been chatting with a woman online who is a neopagan. She knew all the right stuff - everything from salvation to heaven to justification - just everything. She knew the full doctrine of grace and the full doctrine of free will as well. However, she doesn't believe a thing. As much as she knows it in her head, she'll never get it into her heart unless God changes her heart from a heart of stone to a heart of flesh.
     
    #14 annsni, Feb 23, 2010
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ann, I read where it speaks of people in scripture who get a heart of stone because they "grow calloused" over time, but can you show me where it teaches that they are born in that condition? Thanks
     
    #15 Skandelon, Feb 23, 2010
  16. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Whether it was from birth or not - does she have a heart of flesh now? It is clear the state of her heart from speaking to her. She has read the Word, she has heard the Gospel. Her heart is as hard as a rock and she will never respond to the Word until God changes her heart.
     
    #16 annsni, Feb 23, 2010
  17. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I understand that is her current condition, but in regard to what scripture teaches on this subject, do you know of where the scripture teaches that men are born hardened (with a heart of stone), because there are many verses which speak of people "becoming" or "growing" hardened and I just wonder how that relates to mankind's natural ability from birth.
     
    #17 Skandelon, Feb 23, 2010
  18. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Well, since all have sinned, none seek after God I'd say that the heart is not exactly fresh, clean and soft at any time before salvation. But I do think the heart is hardened even more through life and continual turning from God.
     
    #18 annsni, Feb 23, 2010
  19. swaimj

    swaimj <img src=/swaimj.gif>

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    Still, it's all a little confusing. Calvinists frequently argue, here on the BB and elsewhere, that Calvinism IS the gospel. They also argue that a person is spiritually dead and cannot understand the gospel unless God reveals it to them. So how is it that you can have people who understand Calvinism, the actual gospel which cannot be understood by the unregenerate person, and yet are unsaved?
     
    #19 swaimj, Feb 23, 2010
  20. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Well, there must be a difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge. After all, Scripture tells us that even the demons believe. If they understood the truth of the Gospel - I mean really knew what it was about, do you think they would turn it down? When I heard the Gospel there was nothing else for me to do but bow to it. Everyone I've ever spoken to who was saved has said the same thing - there was no way for them to turn away. What's the difference?
     
    #20 annsni, Feb 23, 2010
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