Piper teaches that some Calvinists might not be Born Again.

[Skandelon]

Hank, just for clarity, I agree with all the verses you are quoting and the position you are arguing, because I see no difficulty with those teachings from my non-Calvinistic perspective. What I'm asking about is how someone who believes in "Total Depravity" as being "totally unable" to see, hear and understand...and completely dead and without spiritual understanding or discernment. How does someone in that condition get to the point they can teach and argue passionately these so-called "doctrines of grace?" Further, how can someone is "totally depraved" prophesy, cast out demons and other wonderful works in the name of Christ? Doesn't "DEAD" mean "DEAD like a corpse" when you all are trying to support the concept of men's lack of ability to respond to God message of reconciliation?

 

[Winman]

Hank, just for clarity, I agree with all the verses you are quoting and the position you are arguing, because I see no difficulty with those teachings from my non-Calvinistic perspective. What I'm asking about is how someone who believes in "Total Depravity" as being "totally unable" to see, hear and understand...and completely dead and without spiritual understanding or discernment. How does someone in that condition get to the point they can teach and argue passionately these so-called "doctrines of grace?" Further, how can someone is "totally depraved" prophesy, cast out demons and other wonderful works in the name of Christ? Doesn't "DEAD" mean "DEAD like a corpse" when you all are trying to support the concept of men's lack of ability to respond to God message of reconciliation?

Total Depravity is a false doctrine. Yes, all men are sinners, but we are not so depraved that we cannot choose between good and evil. The scriptures themselves show men know both good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Cain could have done good and given an acceptable sacrifice.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

The young rich ruler was unsaved, but he knew and understood the law, and even kept the law to a great degree.

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Notice that Jesus himself confirmed that this unregenerate young man knew and understood the commandments. Also, when the young man said he had kept the commandments the Lord mentioned, the Lord did not deny that he had done so.

The scriptures say man has a conscience. The very definition of conscience is that a person can distinguish between right and wrong and that the conscience pulls a man to do what is good.

From Webster's Dictionary:

Conscience

1 a : the sense or consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good b : a faculty, power, or principle enjoining good acts

Every man is born with a conscience, and carries a feeling of obligation to do what is right or good. Yes, a person can deaden their conscience over time through sin, but all men are born with a conscience. The scriptures speak of man's conscience many times.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul here is speaking of the Gentiles who do not have the law, but yet by nature kept the law. It also said they had the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness. And these are people who had not heard of Christ.

Total Depravity is a false and unscriptural teaching.

 

[HankD]

Total Depravity is a false doctrine. Yes, all men are sinners, but we are not so depraved that we cannot choose between good and evil. The scriptures themselves show men know both good and evil.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Cain could have done good and given an acceptable sacrifice.

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

The young rich ruler was unsaved, but he knew and understood the law, and even kept the law to a great degree.

Luke 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Notice that Jesus himself confirmed that this unregenerate young man knew and understood the commandments. Also, when the young man said he had kept the commandments the Lord mentioned, the Lord did not deny that he had done so.

The scriptures say man has a conscience. The very definition of conscience is that a person can distinguish between right and wrong and that the conscience pulls a man to do what is good.

From Webster's Dictionary:

Conscience

1 a : the sense or consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good b : a faculty, power, or principle enjoining good acts

Every man is born with a conscience, and carries a feeling of obligation to do what is right or good. Yes, a person can deaden their conscience over time through sin, but all men are born with a conscience. The scriptures speak of man's conscience many times.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

Paul here is speaking of the Gentiles who do not have the law, but yet by nature kept the law. It also said they had the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness. And these are people who had not heard of Christ.

Total Depravity is a false and unscriptural teaching.

I am not a "calvinist" but IMO, Total Depravity (correctly defined) speaks more to the potential of the unregenerate heart.

The "average man in the street" is not a "Hitler" because of the restraints put upon him/her by God Himself via those who "wield the sword", the fear of reprisal, retribution, imprisonment as well as the restraining power of God through the gift of the human conscience.

Even among those who are believers - take David for instance who committed what today would be called pre-meditated capital murder of the first degree as well as blatant adutery. He had motive, means and opportunity and he took them.

Today, even with the indwelling Spirit, Christians on occassion seem capable of the most despicable acts. After all we are told not to grieve the Spirit.

I believe it has more to do with potential than actuality (to coin a phrase).


HankD

 

[Skandelon]

I am not a "calvinist" but IMO, Total Depravity (correctly defined) speaks more to the potential of the unregenerate heart.

Not from the Calvinistic perspective it doesn't.

From Calvinistic sources:

Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

There is nothing "potential" about this condition of man from birth. While, I understand that Calvinist don't believe that man is as sinful as one can be it doesn't change the condition of the heart from birth regard to his ability or lack thereof.

 

[Winman]

Not from the Calvinistic perspective it doesn't.

From Calvinistic sources:



There is nothing "potential" about this condition of man from birth. While, I understand that Calvinist don't believe that man is as sinful as one can be it doesn't change the condition of the heart from birth regard to his ability or lack thereof.

Well, it is really an oxymoron to say that man is utterly unable to do good, and then admit that unregenerate man is not as bad as he can be. But this is par for the course for Calvinism, the whole doctrine forces you to accept many contradictions. And the very word conscience, which every man possesses, is defined as knowing good from evil and having a pull or desire to do that which is good. If Calvinism were really true, then unregenerate man would not possess a conscience.

 

[Brutus]

Please allow me to interject my 2 cents worth. I grew up in a church that taught the true gospel of Christ. I fully understood who Christ was and what He accomplished upon the cross. And I fully agreed with it. Only thing was, I had no desire to even acknowledge Christ as Lord of my life. In fact I went so far that I would not even acknowledge that God even existed. I mean there was absolutely nothing inside of me that wanted anything to do with Christ or His kingdom. That is, until a dear lady from another church asked me if I would be willing to sit and listen to a recored sermon. To get her off my back I finally agreed. I came home from work that night, family was all asleep upstairs so I went to the stereo room, rolled a big fat joint & opened a bottle of beer, smoked a second joint, drank another beer, made sure I had a good buzz on and then put the record on and mocked God while listening to the preacher. All of a sudden my mind was clear and I understood what was being spoken, and even if I had wanted to get up and run, I could not, the Holy Spirit held me captive and Christ came to me, He pursued me, not the other way around, because, up until that very moment my heart was as hard and cold as a rock. You get it? He came to me, not the other way around! The scales fell off and Christ came into my life and gave me a heart of flesh. Henceforth, I know that the Doctrines of Grace are true and God is faithful, and merciful. "Called and chosen when I was far away, You brought me into Your family, Free, forgiven, my guilt is washed away, Your loving kindness is life to me. Grace loves the sinner, loves all that I amand all I'll ever be." Stuart Townend.

Michael,Ps.121

 

[Skandelon]

Please allow me to interject my 2 cents worth. I grew up in a church that taught the true gospel of Christ. I fully understood who Christ was and what He accomplished upon the cross. And I fully agreed with it. Only thing was, I had no desire to even acknowledge Christ as Lord of my life. In fact I went so far that I would not even acknowledge that God even existed. I mean there was absolutely nothing inside of me that wanted anything to do with Christ or His kingdom. That is, until a dear lady from another church asked me if I would be willing to sit and listen to a recored sermon. To get her off my back I finally agreed. I came home from work that night, family was all asleep upstairs so I went to the stereo room, rolled a big fat joint & opened a bottle of beer, smoked a second joint, drank another beer, made sure I had a good buzz on and then put the record on and mocked God while listening to the preacher. All of a sudden my mind was clear and I understood what was being spoken, and even if I had wanted to get up and run, I could not, the Holy Spirit held me captive and Christ came to me, He pursued me, not the other way around, because, up until that very moment my heart was as hard and cold as a rock. You get it? He came to me, not the other way around! The scales fell off and Christ came into my life and gave me a heart of flesh. Henceforth, I know that the Doctrines of Grace are true and God is faithful, and merciful. "Called and chosen when I was far away, You brought me into Your family, Free, forgiven, my guilt is washed away, Your loving kindness is life to me. Grace loves the sinner, loves all that I amand all I'll ever be." Stuart Townend.

Michael,Ps.121

Michael, just to clarify, we all (both Calvinists and Arminians) believe that it is God who initiates the work of salvation. In other words, we all agree that it is God who pursues us, not the other way around.

 

[Winman]

Please allow me to interject my 2 cents worth. I grew up in a church that taught the true gospel of Christ. I fully understood who Christ was and what He accomplished upon the cross. And I fully agreed with it. Only thing was, I had no desire to even acknowledge Christ as Lord of my life. In fact I went so far that I would not even acknowledge that God even existed. I mean there was absolutely nothing inside of me that wanted anything to do with Christ or His kingdom. That is, until a dear lady from another church asked me if I would be willing to sit and listen to a recored sermon. To get her off my back I finally agreed. I came home from work that night, family was all asleep upstairs so I went to the stereo room, rolled a big fat joint & opened a bottle of beer, smoked a second joint, drank another beer, made sure I had a good buzz on and then put the record on and mocked God while listening to the preacher. All of a sudden my mind was clear and I understood what was being spoken, and even if I had wanted to get up and run, I could not, the Holy Spirit held me captive and Christ came to me, He pursued me, not the other way around, because, up until that very moment my heart was as hard and cold as a rock. You get it? He came to me, not the other way around! The scales fell off and Christ came into my life and gave me a heart of flesh. Henceforth, I know that the Doctrines of Grace are true and God is faithful, and merciful. "Called and chosen when I was far away, You brought me into Your family, Free, forgiven, my guilt is washed away, Your loving kindness is life to me. Grace loves the sinner, loves all that I amand all I'll ever be." Stuart Townend.

Michael,Ps.121

Well, you weren't just walking around when this happened were you? What were you doing? You were listening to the preaching of God's word. That is how salvation is always shown in the scriptures, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It's was the power of God's word that convicted you to accept Christ. You weren't just walking around kicking a can when this happened were you?

 

[Brutus]

I completely understand and agree with what you're saying .But what made that particular moment in time and space the right time for God to claim me for His own, why not any one of the hundreds of times I heard the Word of God spoken? For years I sat under very great preaching and wanted nothing to do with God.There was never a moment when I even felt the slightest twinge, never felt convicted. And evidently you missed it, but I was mocking God through out most of that particular message, I was stoned, I wanted nothing to do with God, just wanted to be able to say to that lady that I had indeed listened to it to get her to quit pestering me. So explain to me if you will, why all of a sudden without any desire to want to have anything to do with God, that He through His Holy Spirit regenerated me that night so that I could respond to His call, because, and I'm being honest with you here, I really wanted to get up off of the couch and run as fast as I could. But I couldn't, and I really wanted to at that moment. So I don't think it has anything to do with whether I was sitting down listening to sermons or walking around kicking that can as you said! What about the apostle Paul, he was walking around when the Lord called to him? Was he listening to the Word of God being proclaimed at that particular time of his conversion? :saint:

Michael

 

[Winman]

Well, Michael, I can't explain it, but that doesn't prove you were regenerated to believe. Who can understand human nature? I got saved when I was 11, and it was really the very first time I had heard a powerful preaching of the gospel. My family was not religious whatsoever and rarely attended church. I had been a few times when I was very young and knew Jesus was God's Son and believed that. But until a neighbor invited me to church and I heard a powerful sermon on sin and hell I never thought of myself as a lost sinner, in fact I had been taught that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell (works).

Paul himself resisted the Holy Spirit. He was there when Stephen preached to the Jews. As you know, they became so angry they knashed their teeth and stopped their ears. They rushed upon him and dragged him out of the city and stoned him. They laid their garments at Paul's (Saul) feet.

Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

As you might know, Paul (Saul) became a determined persecuter of the Christians. He threw many in prison and I believe put some to death. Christians were fleeing Jerusalem for their lives. That is why Paul went to Damascus, to capture Christians who had fled there for safety. And it was Paul especially they were trying to escape.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

And even when the Lord appeared to Paul, I believe there was still some resistance there.

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Notice the strange question Paul asked the Lord when he asked "Who art thou Lord?". Now why is that strange? Because the Lord had just asked, "Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?"

Now, don't you think Paul was quite aware who he was persecuting? Of course he was. So, he was in a bit of denial here if you ask me.

And that he was still resisting is shown by what Jesus answered, "I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."
Paul was still resisting, Jesus said he was kicking against the pricks. But now Paul had heard from Jesus's own mouth his name. What could he do now? It was either continue to resist Jesus or submit. And fortunately he submitted, for the next thing he said was, "Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?". I personally believe this is the very moment Paul was saved, for the first time he confessed that Jesus was the Lord, and asked what Jesus would have him do.

But notice, even in this case Paul first heard the word of God. It was not the light from heaven that brought him around, it was the words of Jesus.

And Paul did not receive the Holy Spirit until three days afterward.

Acts 9:9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Only after three days did Ananias come and lay hands on him and he received the Spriit.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

So, why do some men resist more than others? I can't say for certain, but I think personal pride is the biggest problem. It is a known fact that the vast majority of Christians accept Jesus when very young. Why? Because children are very humble. It is only when we get older that men become filled with pride. And statistics have proven that the older a person is when they hear the gospel, the less likely they are to accept Christ.

So, I believe pride is the single biggest problem when it comes to people accepting Christ.

 

[Andy T.]

So, why do some men resist more than others? I can't say for certain, but I think personal pride is the biggest problem. It is a known fact that the vast majority of Christians accept Jesus when very young. Why? Because children are very humble. It is only when we get older that men become filled with pride. And statistics have proven that the older a person is when they hear the gospel, the less likely they are to accept Christ.

So, I believe pride is the single biggest problem when it comes to people accepting Christ.

So the ultimate hinge or turning point of our salvation is whether or not we are humble enough?

 

[Skandelon]

So the ultimate hinge or turning point of our salvation is whether or not we are humble enough?

No. The "ultimate hinge" is free will, period, to define what "makes" the will choose one option over the other is to assume its not free and thus begs the question.

 

[Winman]

So the ultimate hinge or turning point of our salvation is whether or not we are humble enough?

What did Jesus say?

Matt 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Who does God give grace to?

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

What was the difference between the Pharisee and the publican?

Luke 18:10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The publican was humble and confessed he was a sinner. He trusted only in that God was very kind and merciful. Jesus said he went down to his house justified, that is, his sins all forgiven.

 

[Andy T.]

No. The "ultimate hinge" is free will, period, to define what "makes" the will choose one option over the other is to assume its not free and thus begs the question.

Actually, to say it is "free will" begs the question or doesn't answer the question at all - the question as to why some come and some don't. And I realize your need to escape the question, because the answer is not one you would like to admit.

 

[Andy T.]

The publican was humble and confessed he was a sinner. He trusted only in that God was very kind and merciful. Jesus said he went down to his house justified, that is, his sins all forgiven.

I agree. Where we disagree is to whom we can credit that humility. You ultimately have to credit yourself; I credit God.

 

[Winman]

I agree. Where we disagree is to whom we can credit that humility. You ultimately have to credit yourself; I credit God.

I don't credit myself whatsoever. If you read my previous post you will see I said I did not think of myself as a sinner in peril of hell until I heard a sermon on sin and hell. It was God's word that made me realize that even as a boy I was a sinner, and the wages of sin was death. I knew I had sinned, I had lied before, I had been disobediant to my parents at times, I had probably taken someone else's toy home. I was made aware by God's word that even these sins were enough to condemn me to hell, and so at the invitation I went down and asked Jesus to forgive my sins.

If I had not heard God's word that Sunday morning, I might very well still be lost and on my way to hell.

But I wasn't walking around kicking a can and was suddenly zapped by the Holy Spirit and had a desire to go to church. No, it was just as the scriptures teach, I heard the word of God, and God's word convicted me as a sinner.

 

[Andy T.]

I don't credit myself whatsoever. If you read my previous post you will see I said I did not think of myself as a sinner in peril of hell until I heard a sermon on sin and hell. It was God's word that made me realize that even as a boy I was a sinner, and the wages of sin was death. I knew I had sinned, I had lied before, I had been disobediant to my parents at times, I had probably taken someone else's toy home. I was made aware by God's word that even these sins were enough to condemn me to hell, and so at the invitation I went down and asked Jesus to forgive my sins.

If I had not heard God's word that Sunday morning, I might very well still be lost and on my way to hell.

But I wasn't walking around kicking a can and was suddenly zapped by the Holy Spirit and had a desire to go to church. No, it was just as the scriptures teach, I heard the word of God, and God's word convicted me as a sinner.

But someone else who heard that very same sermon you did, may have not believed and rejected the whole message. So in the end, you were more humble than the other person, and the humility is to your credit, otherwise, you would be the dreaded robot of Calvinism.

 

[Winman]

But someone else who heard that very same sermon you did, may have not believed and rejected the whole message. So in the end, you were more humble than the other person, and the humility is to your credit, otherwise, you would be the dreaded robot of Calvinism.

There were in fact several hundred people present that day, and only I and my older brother went down at the invitation. I was around 10-11 (can't remember the exact date), my brother one year older.

Now, I am sure many in the crowd were already saved, and I am sure that some probably were not. Why they chose not to go down I cannot say, that is between them and God.

All I know is that when I heard from the preacher and scriptures how terrible hell is, and how that the wages for sin is death, I was scared to death. I did not want to go one more second in peril of going to hell. When the preacher invited anyone to come down and find out from the scriptures how they can have their sins forgiven and go to heaven, I nearly ran down.

I was a kid, I really wasn't asking myself if I was humble that day. I was worried about my soul.

You Calvinists can't imagine a person having anything but corrupt and impure thoughts can you? Children are not like that, and if you think back you will realize that.

 

[Andy T.]

You Calvinists can't imagine a person having anything but corrupt and impure thoughts can you?

No, I just am wondering why your thoughts were pure enough to humble yourself to be saved, while another kid in the same service didn't have pure enough thoughts to humble himself to be saved?

 

[Winman]

No, I just am wondering why your thoughts were pure enough to humble yourself to be saved, while another kid in the same service didn't have pure enough thoughts to humble himself to be saved?

Why do some people love broccoli and others hate it?

You, like some others here think that asking a question that nobody can possibly answer (how can I know what another person is thinking) proves your doctrine true. It does not.

Why did some people pack up and leave when hurricane Katrina was approaching, while others decided to stay and were killed? Did the National Weather Service have a supernatural effectual call that caused some to believe the storm was dangerous, but another "general call" to others?

I grew up on the coast of Florida, lived less than a mile from the Atlantic Ocean and have rode out a few hurricanes. I understand why some people stay. Our home was very strong, we were a safe distance from the ocean, and we had rode out a few storms.

But one night when I was around 14-15 a fairly strong hurricane with winds around 100-110 MPH hit shore just 10 miles south of where I lived. It came in around 3 A.M. and man, it got pretty intense. Our house was shaking and all our storm windows were buzzing. I remember looking out the window and seeing palm trees and pine trees doubled over. We started wondering if we should have got out, but it was too late for that now. We survived, in an hour or so the winds went down, but for awhile there it was truly scary.

But that is how people are, some are very frightened by storm warnings and get out quickly, others are not so scared for many reasons and decide to stay.

And it is the same in church. Some folks feel they are alright. They think they are good and have nothing to worry about. Some do not take scripture seriously and are not worried, while others take the scriptures very seriously.

It's just a dumb question, for no one can answer for another.