Piper teaches that some Calvinists might not be Born Again.

The reason people do not believe is not a mystery at all, Jesus himself gave the reason.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

The answer is simple, some men love sin and do not want to give it up. This is why people will not come to Christ. Everyone knows that Jesus wants us to turn from sin. These people want to continue in their sin because they enjoy it. They will deceive themselves and lie to themselves, convinicing themselves that God does not exist.

Psa 14:1 [To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

By the way, this is the scripture Paul quotes in Romans that Calvinists falsely teach applies to all men. But if you read the rest of this Psalm you clearly see it distinguishes between the wicked and good.

Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.

The Jews whom Paul was addressing knew this Psalm and knew it did not apply to all men. It is speaking of wicked men who reject God and even convince themselves that God doesn't exist.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

These people willfully choose to convince themselves that God doesn't exist. Why? Because they love and have pleasure in sin.

Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

The scriptures show that God strives with man, but not forever. At a certain point which only God knows, he will give them up and let them believe their own lies.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

It is not a mystery why some men will not believe on Christ, the answer is given repeatedly. Some men simply love sin and reject God.

Job 21:7 Wherefore do the wicked live, become old, yea, are mighty in power?
8 Their seed is established in their sight with them, and their offspring before their eyes.
9 Their houses are safe from fear, neither is the rod of God upon them.
10 Their bull gendereth, and faileth not; their cow calveth, and casteth not her calf.
11 They send forth their little ones like a flock, and their children dance.
12 They take the timbrel and harp, and rejoice at the sound of the organ.
13 They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave.
14 Therefore they say unto God, Depart from us; for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.
15 What is the Almighty, that we should serve him? and what profit should we have, if we pray unto him?

 

WINMAN SAID:
Total Depravity is a false doctrine. Yes, all men are sinners, but we are not so depraved that we cannot choose between good and evil. The scriptures themselves show men know both good and evil.

I don't think it is so much a false doctrine as it is a misunderstood and misinterpreted doctrine. My simple understanding of TOTAL DEPRAVITY is that it does not relate as much to amount of sin in us as to the fact that the principle of sin within us has infiltrated every facet of our being, our emotions, our, will, our intellect, our desires, our perspective, etc...everything.

If I could illustrate it thus...

If I were to take a 2 litre bottle of coco cola and poor in 1 teaspoon of arsenic, would you consider drinking it even though the quantitative portion of cola far outways that of the poison...of course not because the poison, though just a little has contamintated the cola entirely. The new testament uses the picture of a little leaven in a big batch of dough to illustrate the point similarly.

 

Well, that is a very good example. And I once believed that man was born a sinner and could not help but sin. But I do not see that in the scriptures. What I do see is that man is flesh, and the flesh has many desires. These desires are not bad or harmful if controlled. I have given the example of our appetite. Our appetite is good, we need to eat to be healthy. But if a person does not control their appetite and overeats then health problems arise.

Was it wrong for Eve to desire to be wise? No, the scriptures teach that we should seek wisdom.

Prov 19:8 He that getteth wisdom loveth his own soul: he that keepeth understanding shall find good.

The problem was that Eve did not control her natural desire to be wise. She had been commanded not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Man was created with the ability to sin, but that does not make God the author of sin. I have explained it this way several times:

We all own cars that can easily go much faster than the posted speed limit. But that does not cause us to drive over the limit. And, man knows that men (and women) will drive just as fast as they possibly can, and so we set speed limits on our roads and highways. But this foreknowledge that men will desire to drive faster than the limit also does not cause us to drive over the limit.

It is the same with free will. God giving us free will does not cause us to abuse it and sin against his laws. And God knowing beforehand that we will sin does not cause us to sin. We sin of our own free will and volition and are 100% responsible when we sin.

So God making man a free agent is not the cause of sin, just as having a car that is able to drive over the limit does not cause us to drive over the limit.

Toyota excluded. :tongue3:

 

Eve didn't merely desire to be wise, that is a misunderstanding of scripture in itself. The devil told her that she would be a god. She wasn't in pursuit of godly wisdom, which is what Solomon is talking about in that verse. She was in pursuit of power, one of the chief things man has lusted after ever since.

 

God's grace is not dependant on what anyone believes.

 

When Satan told Eve they would be as gods to know good and evil, he was telling the truth. That is exactly what happened.

Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Now look what God himself said after they ate the fruit.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Is it a sin to know good and evil? If so, then God would be a sinner.

The lie was that Satan said they would not die.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Did Adam and Eve fall dead on the spot? No. But didn't God say they would die that very day? Yes.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Death in the scriptures means to be separated from God. Were they separated that day? Yes. They hid when they heard God's voice.

Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Now Adam and Eve were spiritually dead, separated from God. But could they hear God when he called them? Yes. Could they respond and come to God when he called them? Yes.

Sorry, Total Depravity goes down the drain right there. Unsaved and unregenerate man can hear and respond to God when God calls.

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

Calvinism misinterprets scripture from the beginning and grows in error from then on.

 

what did adam and eve do to obtain their own salvation? which scripture tell us that?

 

They came to him.

Now, before you dismiss that, think about it, why did Adam and Eve hide from God in the first place? Did not God promise them that the day they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would surely die? Do you suppose the thought might have crossed their mind that God was going to kill them? I don't think that is a stretch to imagine that they did.

But when God called them, they believed him to be merciful, kind, and forgiving and came out of hiding and presented themselves to him.

They trusted him.

And God was merciful and kind to them. Instead of killing them he killed an animal (representing Christ) and made skins to cover their nakedness. This clothing represents the righteousness of Christ imputed to us when we trust Christ.

 

Another thing about the whole event.

Why did God ask Adam and Eve in Gen 3:9 where they were?
Surely God knew where they were, so why ask?
Was He perhaps giving them a choice? Was it the first call?

 

So winman I take it that you do not believe that man is inherently sinful from birth...is that what you are saying, man is not a sinner?

 

I believe man is born "flesh". The scriptures say it repeatedly. The flesh has desires and lusts which pull and tug at us to satisfy our wants. But we are not forced to sin, we sin when we allow our own lusts to entice or seduce us. This is what the scriptures say.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin, but men sin when their own lust entices them. And when they give in to this lust and commit sin the death sentence passes upon them.

Children are born flesh. They have desires and lusts just like the rest of us. But children do not have knowledge of right and wrong and therefore are not held accountable by God. The scriptures say sin is the transgression of the law. How can a little child understand the law? Even man does not hold little children accountable until they reach a certain level of maturity.

Not all our desires and lusts are bad. It is not wrong to have an appetite, we need to eat to be healthy. But when we give full vent to our appetite and overeat we can become overweight and have health problems. It is not wrong for a man to enjoy looking at his wife or having relations with her, but when a man looks at other women or has relations he commits sin.

The scriptures show that man willingly corrupted his way. He chose to do evil.

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

We know man was not absolutely forced to sin, because Noah lived a very pure life, even when all those around him did not.

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Now, I understand a Calvinist will argue that the only reason that Noah was just and perfect was because of God's grace. But I say it is the other way around, the reason Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord was because he was obedient and did that which he knew was right. Now, I agree, he had to first have knowledge of God and what is right and wrong before he could perform it. He learned this from his parents, this knowledge being passed down starting with Adam and Eve.

Look up the word grace and you will many times see it has to do with what God sees in a man. It will say Noah found grace "in the eyes of the Lord". You will see this many times.

Exo 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

You see, it says Moses found grace "in my sight". So it is what God sees in a man that causes him to give grace to a man. And what is it that God sees? Faith. This is explained about Moses in Hebrews 11.

Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.

Man has many natural desires and lusts, but this is no excuse for sin, else how could man be held accountable? No one has to sin. I have sinned many times in my life but I can honestly say I was never forced to sin and could have done the right thing if I had chosen to do so.

And wouldn't you say the same? Are you absolutely forced to sin?

And even though man does have a flesh nature that pulls him to fulfill his own desires and not those of God, every man has a conscience. The scriptures say man has a conscience. By definition conscience means man knows the difference between right and wrong and has a desire to do what is good.

Conscience itself disproves Total Depravity. If Total Depravity as Calvinism understands it were true, no unregenerate man would have a conscience.

Here is how Strongs Corcordance defines "conscience" as shown in the scriptures many times:

1) the consciousness of anything

2) the soul as distinguishing between what is morally good and bad, prompting to do the former and shun the latter, commending one, condemning the other

a) the conscience

Notice #2, it says the conscience can distinguish between what is morally good and bad and "prompts" the man toward the good and to shun what is evil.

Every man has a conscience. Even unsaved people have a conscience and to deny so is to deny reality. Men have turned themselves into the law for crimes they committed many years earlier because their conscience bothered them. People confess things they have done wrong to others every day because their conscience bothers them. Unsaved people do this all the time, not just saved people.

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

These men were unsaved, they were attempting to tempt Jesus in order to accuse him of sin. But they had a conscience, and Jesus's words convicted them.

So, we are flesh, but we have a conscience and have no excuse when we sin. Very small children do not have a conscience, it develops over time. A two year old does not feel guilty if he eats every cookie on the plate and leaves none for his brothers or sisters. Conscience has to be taught and takes time. Anyone with children (I have 8) knows this. You have to teach your children it is wrong to be selfish or to lie, they do not know it automatically. Responsibility necessarily requires knowledge.

 

I just wanted to add to what I said before. Up here in Connecticut there is a good TV show on Sunday. There is a local preacher who goes to college campuses and debates with students outdoors. These kids come up with some difficult questions for this preacher to answer sometimes. But he also asks them questions.

For instance, he will ask them "Is is wrong to lie?". Almost everyone will agree it is. Then he will ask them why it is wrong to lie. Most will just say that it is. Then he will ask, "What if Bobby here thinks it is OK to lie, if there is no absolute authority, then how can we tell him he is wrong?". They will usually answer that society has decided it is wrong to lie. But he will then ask, "If there is no God, what right does society have to tell you what is good or bad? What makes them right? If there is no God, and man is his own master, then why can't every man decide for himself what is right and wrong and what is best for himself?"

The point is, Calvinsm could be seen to be true if there was no God, and no influence of God in mankind. If we had never heard of God whatsoever, then man himself would decide for himself what is right and wrong. There would be no absolute authority for anyone, anyone could do whatever he pleased and surely would.

But the word of God has been with us since God first warned Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Man has always had God graciously showing him what is right and wrong through his word. God's word has always restrained man, and formed his conscience, just as a parent forms the conscience of his children by telling the child what is right and what is wrong.

All good comes from God, and man has always had knowledge of God. In fact, experience itself proves that the more a man puts away the knowledge of God from his mind, the worse he behaves (generally). And generally, the more a man listens to God's word, the less he will sin.

Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Man without God would be Totally Depraved, but that has never been reality from day one.

 

So how do you interpret what the New testament teaches in Romans an other books about the "sin nature" of man...what is that then?

 

This is yet another example of extreme absurdity. In his hatred of what he wants Calvinism to be -- Winman says the most sinfully ridiculous things.

Again I ask some non-Cals to get with this guy and correct him. He's doing the non-Cal cause a great deal of harm.

 

Sounds like the non-Calvinist position to me :tongue3:

 

If man has no sin nature and therefore not tainted with original sin, then the Catholics are right in their doctrine of Immaculate Conception of Mary.

 

Well, you have identified the question. The question is, is sin inherited physically from our parents? If not, then Jesus would not have inherited sin from his mother Mary. But if sin is physically inherited, then you must explain how Jesus was born without sin. This is where the false doctrine of the Immaculate Conception came from, it came from the false doctrine of Original Sin. Augustine believed sin was passed from the parents to the children through the relations that brought about conception. He believed sin was passed physically as you might inherit your parent's eye or hair color.

Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

The scriptures show man corrupted his way. How can you corrupt something that is already corrupt? You can corrupt that which is pure, but you cannot corrupt that which is already corrupt.

Man becomes a sinner when he knowingly and willingly sins.

 

Winman: How do you explain what David has to say in Ps. 51?