So winman I take it that you do not believe that man is inherently sinful from birth...is that what you are saying, man is not a sinner?
I believe man is born "flesh". The scriptures say it repeatedly. The flesh has desires and lusts which pull and tug at us to satisfy our wants. But we are not forced to sin, we sin when we allow our own lusts to entice or seduce us. This is what the scriptures say.
James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin, but men sin when their own lust entices them. And when they give in to this lust and commit sin the death sentence passes upon them.
Children are born flesh. They have desires and lusts just like the rest of us. But children do not have knowledge of right and wrong and therefore are not held accountable by God. The scriptures say sin is the transgression of the law. How can a little child understand the law? Even man does not hold little children accountable until they reach a certain level of maturity.
Not all our desires and lusts are bad. It is not wrong to have an appetite, we need to eat to be healthy. But when we give full vent to our appetite and overeat we can become overweight and have health problems. It is not wrong for a man to enjoy looking at his wife or having relations with her, but when a man looks at other women or has relations he commits sin.
The scriptures show that man willingly corrupted his way. He chose to do evil.
Gen 6:12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
We know man was not absolutely forced to sin, because Noah lived a very pure life, even when all those around him did not.
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Now, I understand a Calvinist will argue that the only reason that Noah was just and perfect was because of God's grace. But I say it is the other way around, the reason Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord was because he was obedient and did that which he knew was right. Now, I agree, he had to first have knowledge of God and what is right and wrong before he could perform it. He learned this from his parents, this knowledge being passed down starting with Adam and Eve.
Look up the word grace and you will many times see it has to do with what God sees in a man. It will say Noah found grace "in the eyes of the Lord". You will see this many times.
Exo 33:12 And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.
You see, it says Moses found grace "in my sight". So it is what God sees in a man that causes him to give grace to a man. And what is it that God sees? Faith. This is explained about Moses in Hebrews 11.
Heb 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
Man has many natural desires and lusts, but this is no excuse for sin, else how could man be held accountable? No one has to sin. I have sinned many times in my life but I can honestly say I was never forced to sin and could have done the right thing if I had chosen to do so.
And wouldn't you say the same? Are you absolutely forced to sin?
And even though man does have a flesh nature that pulls him to fulfill his own desires and not those of God, every man has a conscience. The scriptures say man has a conscience. By definition conscience means man knows the difference between right and wrong and has a desire to do what is good.
Conscience itself disproves Total Depravity. If Total Depravity as Calvinism understands it were true, no unregenerate man would have a conscience.
Here is how Strongs Corcordance defines "conscience" as shown in the scriptures many times:
1) the consciousness of anything
2) the soul as distinguishing between what is morally good and bad, prompting to do the former and shun the latter, commending one, condemning the other
a) the conscience
Notice #2, it says the conscience can distinguish between what is morally good and bad and "prompts" the man toward the good and to shun what is evil.
Every man has a conscience. Even unsaved people have a conscience and to deny so is to deny reality. Men have turned themselves into the law for crimes they committed many years earlier because their conscience bothered them. People confess things they have done wrong to others every day because their conscience bothers them. Unsaved people do this all the time, not just saved people.
John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
These men were unsaved, they were attempting to tempt Jesus in order to accuse him of sin. But they had a conscience, and Jesus's words convicted them.
So, we are flesh, but we have a conscience and have no excuse when we sin. Very small children do not have a conscience, it develops over time. A two year old does not feel guilty if he eats every cookie on the plate and leaves none for his brothers or sisters. Conscience has to be taught and takes time. Anyone with children (I have 8) knows this. You have to teach your children it is wrong to be selfish or to lie, they do not know it automatically. Responsibility necessarily requires knowledge.
